Talk:India

Democratic Backsliding

In the final statement in the history section, "India's sustained democratic freedoms are unique among the world's newer nations", we need to update it to include the rapid democratic backsliding and the rise of Hindu nationalism seen in recent years. Countless institutes and organizations, studies, and media sources cite this, and it is not a trivial matter to be ignored. I feel like it needs to be included in this article. A sentence or two should work. Some of the sources are Democracy Report 2024 by V-Dem Institute, Democracy in India by Chatham House[1], 'Electoral autocracy': The downgrading of India's democracy by BBC[2], Modi’s strongman rule raises questions about India’s ‘democratic decline’ as he seeks a third term by CNBC[3], The democratic backsliding of India, by The Hindu[4]EarthDude (talk) 16:49, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

It's been nearly two weeks and I haven't recieved any replies. Im adding this then EarthDude (talk) 16:11, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

EarthDude, the lack of response was probably due to the fact that you haven't given a single reliable source supporting your statements. — The Herald (Benison) (talk) 18:43, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

I added the sources now EarthDude (talk) 02:58, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

EarthDude, Not how it works in a featured article, which is also one of the oldest. You have to propose a change, backed up by reliable sources, and then establish a consensus from the community here in the talk page. I understand your enthusiasm, but you can go through the talk page archives to understand the process. Ping me or any other senior editor for any help. Happy editing. — The Herald (Benison) (talk) 04:03, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

Those sources are brief ones looking at a very recent period of history. The current final paragraph is a summation of the last few decades. This covers a broad range of sometimes quite dramatic political events, which are not included here for reasons of concision. You may want to see how the content fits into History of India (1947–present). CMD (talk) 04:08, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

Hmmm yeah I guess it's too recent for this. It has only taken place in the past decade and I also noticed that things like Emergency aren't in the article so year EarthDude (talk) 02:00, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

Democratic backsliding is quite myth. Nothing has been seriously reported in last 4-5 years. The rise of Hindu nationalism is not democratic backsliding. Loveforwiki (talk) 07:35, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Exactly! 103.170.231.236 (talk) 08:52, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

It's a Wikipedia, you don't get to add your personal biased political view points here. Democratic backsliding has always been there and has decreased ever since the rise of hindutva. So kindly stay away 103.170.231.236 (talk) 08:51, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed edit request on 8 October 2024

I have noticed that that in demographics section a table of largest cities is there in many country pages but not in India.Please add it in demographics section. Edasf (talk) 04:53, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit extended-protected}} template. The page is a featured article (one of the oldest of it's kind) and any such change requires consensus approval from the community. The Herald (Benison) (talk) 09:24, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

Adding about Bharatiya Model of Development

I propose to add to the article, to the section about economy, the next text:

"India promotes the Bharatiya model of development considered different from western models. The Economic Survey for the year 2024, noted that often solutions to address climate change “are fuelled by a market society, which seeks to substitute the means to achieve overconsumption rather than addressing overconsumption itself”. The report argued that India needs a different approach and a “Bharatiya Model of Development”, linked to the principles of sustainability and to the Indian philosophy, can help."

The sources:

https://www.policycircle.org/economy/the-bharatiya-model-of-growth/

https://www.downtoearth.org.in/climate-change/bharatiya-model-of-development-tackling-global-climate-change-the-indian-way

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/india/economic-survey-2024-why-india-must-look-at-climate-change-problem-through-indian-way-ditch-western-solutions/articleshow/111921114.cms Alexander Sauda/אלכסנדר סעודה (talk) 13:33, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

These sources read more as marketing spin than a different economic model. The same debates about sustainability are happening everywhere, in the west, India, and elsewhere. CMD (talk) 13:53, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

I went through the refs and they seem more like advertisements than reliable source EarthDude (talk) 02:04, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

The release of the economic survey and what it has said is a fact, not fiction. It is possible that the government of India do not do really what it is declaring, but the declaration itself is a fact. We can write instead of "India promotes the Bharatiya model of development" "The Indian government claims it promotes the Bharatiya model of development" but the declaration itself is enough important fact for being mentioned. Especially if the release of the economic survey speaking about it created such an effect like it is written in the second link.

This is an official link from the site of indian government saying, among others:

the proposed solutions to climate change, which serve as the basis for criticising India, ignore how sustainable living is built into the Indian lifestyle. Rooted in the principles of sustenance, India’s ethos emphasises a harmonious relationship with nature, which is in sharp contrast to the overconsumption prevalent in other parts of the developed world. Solutions to address climate change are based on the principles of a market society, which seeks to substitute the means to achieve overconsumption rather than addressing overconsumption itself. Such an approach thus gives importance to the label under which their lifestyle can continue instead of bringing about a change in their lifestyle.

Over the years, this has produced a slew of policies that have unintended consequences for the planet, resulting in little or no reduction in carbon emissions. If India, with its large population, chooses to go down this path, the climate consequences for the country and the world will be hugely negative. Therefore, India needs to follow its own path and look at the problem through its own lens if the nation is to empower its citizens through economic development while simultaneously addressing the issue of climate change.

These considerations served as the foundation for Mission LiFE, a unique initiative announced by the Hon’ble Prime Minister at the 2021 UN Climate Change Conference. Mission LiFE seeks to bring individual responsibility to the forefront of the fight against climate change. Deriving its principles from ancient Indian philosophy, the tenets of this approach are based on making pro-planet choices without compromising on quality of life. It is about making deliberate choices in the present while remaining conscious of the generations to come. Mission LiFE seeks to address the ‘wants’ of the people without letting them hurt Nature. https://www.indiabudget.gov.in/economicsurvey/doc/eschapter/echap13.pdf

I think such declaration worth mentioning. --Alexander Sauda/אלכסנדר סעודה (talk) 11:38, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

Please find peer reviewed academic papers from respectable journals that explicitly state that the model of economic development in India is particularly indigenous, is known as Bharitya, and that this model is notable in its own right. RegentsPark (comment) 12:05, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

Here is one:

https://www.econstor.eu/bitstream/10419/176144/1/icrier-wp-122.pdf

Except for write about declaration of government an article in a well known news site is enough as far as I know. --Alexander Sauda/אלכסנדר סעודה (talk) 12:29, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

That is a marketing paper and is not a peer reviewed one. Also, to your second point, declarations of governments are not notable by themselves. Other reliable sources need meaningfully comment on them. (I've re-threaded your response so that it correctly appears as a reply.)RegentsPark (comment) 14:20, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

Request for Correction in Map Depiction

The map shown in the "Administrative divisions" section incorrectly indicates that parts of Arunachal Pradesh, Uttarakhand, and Himachal Pradesh are occupied by China. According to an RTI response from the Ministry of External Affairs (dated 25-03-2024), the only region where China has occupied Indian territory is in Ladakh. You can verify this through the following RTI document: RTI-information-25-3-2024.pdf.

I kindly request the removal of the incorrectly marked China-occupied regions from Arunachal Pradesh, Uttarakhand, and Himachal Pradesh on the map. Vaibhav Naik 26 (talk) 12:56, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: It indicates claims only, all white coloured land is controlled by India. CMD (talk) 12:58, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

Add India as a cradle of civillisation

I request that the start of second paragraph we should add India is one of cradles of civilisation .Since its a well known fact.Verify here Cradle of civilization. Edasf (talk) 12:10, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

Edasf, Talk:India/Archive 41#Shoud the Indus Valley Civilization be discussed in the opening section? and Talk:India/Archive 46#Addition Cradle of civilization can throw some light onto previous discussions on the topic. — The Herald (Benison) (talk) 14:05, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

@The Herald We can add the word only without adding wikilink.Adding this not here but on others can be inequality.I have seen that article and the section is very improved now.It can be added . Edasf (talk) 14:38, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: Not appropriate for an unsourced edit to be added directly into the lead, especially if it adds no additional information. CMD (talk) 16:35, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

@Chipmunkdavis It isn't an unsourced edit see my first comment. Edasf (talk) 05:58, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

You have not provided a source here, and it is unclear which of the 190 citations on the linked page you are referring to. CMD (talk) 06:16, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

@Chipmunkdavis I have given link to article you can verify there.Thanks Edasf (talk) 07:43, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia articles are not reliable sources. Please do not use edit template requests without providing sources or gaining consensus for your proposals. CMD (talk) 08:50, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

@Chipmunkdavis Fine,you can see citations 6&7 in linked article.Now,please add it.Thanks Edasf (talk) 11:15, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

If it is to be added, it really needs to go in the "Ancient India" section, not the lede, as modern-day India is not the same entity. As you can see from that paragraph, examples of early hominids were found in areas such as Pakistan. Black Kite (talk) 11:15, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

Then add it there only.And we can also add in lead using Ancient India or Indian subcontinent. Edasf (talk) 11:20, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

Pinging @Fowler&fowler,@The Herald and @Chipmunkdavis for their approval or disapproval over it. Edasf (talk) 07:02, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

Edasf, IMO, the addition is just superfluous. If the general consensus says it needs to be added, then it should go as per Black Kite, not in the lede. The lede doesn't need to touch that part of history and it is more than perfect as it is now. Thanks. — The Herald (Benison) (talk) 08:30, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

@The Herald I have added a comment after Black Kite that we should add there only at least. Edasf (talk) 08:34, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

Edasf, Yes, I'm aware. Hence I said if the general consensus says. So far, there is no consensus. So I'd suggest you to wait till more comments come in. — The Herald (Benison) (talk) 08:36, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

I just saw this. "Cradle of civilization," is an imprecise (and catch-all) term and best not be applied to this featured article, which has been vetted by the WP community for quality.

Moreover, in my way of thinking, if it had to be applied to an ancient culture, it would be that of Mesopotamia and Ancient Egypt. For that is where Homo sapiens—who had originated in Africa and had survived for tens of thousands of years as hunter-gatherers—became a farming, and later irritating, people and gave rise to complex societies. We refer to this in the lead and reference Mehrgarh, where a neolithic culture had first arisen in South Asia, and in turn, gave rise to the Indus Valley Civilisation, the region's first urban culture. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 20:41, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 10 October 2024

Pune is also an urban agglomerate as per the 2011 Census of India, kindly add that ASAP JustAadvikThings (talk) 18:34, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. --Ratekreel (talk) 19:18, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

Apartheid in India?

there are some sources that claim this https://www.hrw.org/news/2007/02/13/india-hidden-apartheid-discrimination-against-dalits https://bylinetimes.com/2020/04/23/an-apartheid-era-begins-in-india-as-does-a-moral-dilemma-for-its-allies/ Gorgonopsi (talk) 09:10, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

Gorgonopsi, you need multiple reliable independent sources and peer reviewed scientific articles and studies to support the claim. One source cannot cover such a claim which is to be put on this featured article. Thanks. — The Herald (Benison) (talk) 09:24, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

Human Rights watch is generally reliable.

https://www.hrw.org/legacy/campaigns/caste/presskit.htm

https://www.theglobalist.com/the-deplorable-parallels-between-apartheid-and-caste/

https://tribunemag.co.uk/2024/08/indias-anti-muslim-apartheid

https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2014/2/28/housing-apartheid-in-indian-city

https://unesdoc.unesco.org/ark:/48223/pf0000123465 Gorgonopsi (talk) 09:27, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

Ya, I support this. Sources like HRW and Al Jazeera are very reliable EarthDude (talk) 07:26, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

While there have been frequent caste and communal tensions in India, I'm not sure if adding this information would be beneficial, as similar geographical articles on the United States, Myanmar, or other African countries have not included it.25 CENTS VICTORIOUS ^🍁 09:25, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

Although the Hindu caste system is in some ways similar to apartheid, and I've casually compared the two myself in talk page discussions, the consensus of scholarly opinion in both Indian historiography and sociology has been not to consider either system to be a form of the other. Note also that the caste system does not only discriminate against the Dalits, though they have certainly borne the brunt of itse oppression. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 20:59, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Add a new image of Rashtrapati Bhavan

I think in the Government section the image of RB is no longer in use on its main article itself and we should use the image on its main article here as well. Edasf (talk) 08:01, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. M.Bitton (talk) 14:03, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

We should change the orthographic image in the infobox

Current version

Above here is the current orthographic map of India used in the infobox. It uses very oversimplified borders and has extreme levels of errors and inaccuracies. For example, it merges Syria, Lebanon, and Israel, into a single country, it merges Jordan and Palestine into a single country, it gives the landlocked country of Moldova access to the Black Sea, basically erased East Timor, among many, many more. I believe it is not upto Wikipedia's standards of quality.

I propose that we change this map to an edited version of the following:

Edited version

EarthDude (talk) 04:52, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

EarthDude, Your edited version doesn't show (modern) India at all. It shows Indian subcontinent. — The Herald (Benison) (talk) 09:01, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

Thats because I'm just tryna gauge consensus here. I wanna see if people actually wanna change it and then I'll probably make the edited version with India's actual current borders, with dark green in all Indian territories and light green in territories India claims EarthDude (talk) 17:40, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

EarthDude, good initiative, but consensus doesn't work like that. You have to provide proper edited version you believe is the most appropriate one and then acquire a consensus for that one. This is one of the oldest featured article and the scrutiny is extra hard. I don't think any editor will agree to such a proposed change which is a crystal ball. Thanks. — The Herald (Benison) (talk) 02:50, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

I don't think consensus would be needed to update the map to fix things like missing borders, but the svg globes seem hard to make, or most would have been fixed by this point. CMD (talk) 04:15, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Your map is showing whole Indian subcontinent add map of India. Edasf (talk) 15:55, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

Yes, i know. I wanna see if there's any consensus for change, and then I'll make the edited version of the map, using the second image, because it is quite high quality EarthDude (talk) 17:42, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

The second image is a png, we tend to use svgs for such maps. CMD (talk) 01:52, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Mention or India's military power and membership of G20 Brics etc in lead

I wonder why it's not mentioned in lead that india is second largest active military personnels and it's part of G20, BRICs, Quad, east asia summit etc like it's mentioned in othet countries page. Why not here ?? Loveforwiki (talk) 03:47, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

@Loveforwiki. Feel free to add it yourself (with a citation). Hacked (Talk|Contribs) 03:53, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

I have added it. But it has redirected to Wikipedia's pages. Loveforwiki (talk) 03:58, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

What makes these key facts to a brief understanding of India? CMD (talk) 04:01, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

It's just common reference of India's involvement in world like other country's lead. Loveforwiki (talk) 04:09, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Theoretically this lead is better than most others, and they should be adapted to fit this one. I do have my issues with the current lead, mostly the coverage of history crowding out the coverage of the current country, but changes to the lead should be considered within the context of this article and ideally backed up by sources, rather than copying other articles. CMD (talk) 04:14, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

I haven't copied anything. It's just sentences that tells which of grouping India is part of.

Although the way the last paragraph of lead is written, like everything is compared to 1951 to current years. I also doesn't approve it. Obviously everything was devastated in 1951 because it got independence in 1947. Loveforwiki (talk) 04:23, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

I thought you wanted to copy the format of the other country pages? If not, where do the content ideas come from? CMD (talk) 05:07, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Can you find any recent scholarly or at least geopolitical sources that are providing the same summary as want to add on the lead? Ratnahastin (talk) 05:10, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

It doesn't requir this deep and complicated debate just to add simple participation of India in these summits. Mostly 95% countries lead pages have these information, Dont know what so special about India that mentioned here. Ok if it's added or not. I support to add these. Loveforwiki (talk) 07:33, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Humans made it to Australia before here

Humans made it to Australia before here bypassing India? 50.100.82.136 (talk) 01:09, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

This is the problem with random statistics in the lead....There is a debate if we where here before the Youngest Toba eruption as outlined at Clarkson, Chris; Harris, Clair; Li, Bo; Neudorf, Christina M.; Roberts, Richard G.; Lane, Christine; Norman, Kasih; Pal, Jagannath; Jones, Sacha; Shipton, Ceri; Koshy, Jinu; Gupta, M. C.; Mishra, D. P.; Dubey, A. K.; Boivin, Nicole; Petraglia, Michael (2020-02-25). "Human occupation of northern India spans the Toba super-eruption ~74,000 years ago". Nature Communications. 11 (1). Springer Science and Business Media LLC. doi:10.1038/s41467-020-14668-4. ISSN 2041-1723...... The debate should be removed from the lead and explained in the article in detail...... As the number 55 seems to be a synthesis of sources with an average guess compiled by Wikipedia editors.Moxy🍁 01:24, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Disease and pollution

I would support the inclusion of the new material F&F reverted in this edit. Other views? Johnbod (talk) 03:32, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

@Johnbod. I'd suggest that you should move your opinion into the "Mention or India's military power and membership of G20 Brics etc in lead" section somewhere in this talk page. Hacked (Talk|Contribs) 03:49, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Actually, don't do that. Sorry, I thought you were talking about something else. My bad. Hacked (Talk|Contribs) 03:51, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

I personally is doubtful that it will be added back. Even if I provide hundreds of reliable sources, it may still be removed by those particular editors with their weird India-loving fetish. Cyanmax (talk) 05:28, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Ah, right, thanks - the addition was to India#Socio-economic_challenges. I may as well quote it all:

Epidemic and pandemic diseases have long been a major factor, including COVID-19 and cholera.

India has consistently been ranked as one of the most polluted countries in the world. Of the 100 most polluted cities in the world, 83 are in India.

Johnbod (talk) 03:58, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

@Johnbod. I, too, support the inclusion of the material recently reverted in the article. It might help to involve F&F in this discussion. Hacked (Talk|Contribs) 04:08, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I expect he'll see it, but if not, what do you think User:Fowler&fowler? Johnbod (talk) 04:19, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

It is the middle of the night here. Not sure why I woke up. Perhaps I'm worried about our election tomorrow. Not sure why I clicked on the bell up top, which I do three times a year. It is perennially full.

Off the top of my head: So someone finds David Arnold's latest book and they've created a blurb from it and think it is good to include here. What other books have they read on health and disease in

India have they read? Have they read David Arnold's other books? Say Science and Medicine in Colonial India? Or, Burning the Dead? They have likely not if they have managed to reduce a sensitive and sympathetic historian's work to such a blurb? Do they know anything about Vibrio cholerae? Do they know it is endemic to a species of shrimp in the estuary of the Meghna river in Bangladesh? Only during major religious festivals such as Kumbh in Allahabad had the bacterium traveled upstream and create, for example, the world's first cholera pandemic. The other cholera pandemics were world-wide.

Speaking of Kumbh, do they know that it was a small religious gathering historically, which during the British Raj years was transformed into a major India-wide religious gathering. They might want to read Kama Maclean's book Pilgrimage and Power. Have they read Tim Dyson's A Population History of India, which has a much material devoted not just to cholera, but also to India's more lethal historical killer, malaria. There is material on the plague in the late 19th century, and on the many famines. See Timeline of major famines in India during British rule. This is a complicated subject not reducible to simple formulations. I'm not averse, obviously, to something being added, but it will require much more discussion and will take time. I have to go back to bed. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 08:15, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

People are better off reading a broad scale history book, such as Burton Stein and David Arnold's History of India, Wiley-Blackwell, 2012 (originally OUP), which is the sort of book we cite from in this article. Perhaps look in it for disease in India. Covid-19 is a separate story. India had the largest excess mortality of any country, some 47 million, which the Indian government has not accepted. Some say that the decennial (10-yearly) census has bee postponed because it might show a minor population crash.

Generally, secondary sources (such as Arnold's Pandemic India, or monographs) are not appropriate for this article. Introductory textbooks are. See WP:TERTIARY for the role of introductory texts in determining due weight. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 08:30, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Read this: https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/delhi-air-pollution-capital-breathes-toxic-air-as-aqi-severe-in-many-areas-details-101730777540525.html

India being literally the most polluted country in the world IS common knowledge, and yes, u are sabotaging this info due to your weird fetish. Cyanmax (talk) 08:32, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Please explain what my "weird fetish" is. I've spent a lifetime thinking about these issues. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 08:34, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Please note that I had added, "Among the socio-economic challenges India faces are gender inequality, child malnutrition, and rising levels of air pollution." in the revised lead prepared for Gandhi 150th WP:TFA in October 2019. It can be used to create three or four sentences with more details. Covid-19 was more global. Now I really do have to go back to bed. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 08:54, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

That sentence was added to the lead of this article. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 08:55, 5 November 2024 (UTC)