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Consensus needed for film list style

[edit]

Hi, just searched for films in 1981 in film. The list has been removed in favour of the country lists. Then I click List of American films of 1981 and it has a bloated release list with excessive cast which makes it difficult to browse and find films, and even has some films which aren't American or from that year. I restored the American lists from around 1970 to 2000 back to the clean A-Z you see in List of American films of 1956 a few months back but the IP has reverted back to the bloated tables on all. All I want is a simple A-Z list for easy browsing, consistently by year and country, it's why I created the lists in the first place! It is time consuming going back and finding the original text and restoring and even if I do that it seems like nobody is watching these lists and would help revert the ip if he did it again. There also seems to be a tendency on recent years for the big bloated release tables, I argue that even those should be converted to simple A-Z lists. Is there any agreement here that A-Z format is much easier for browsing and more desirable than by release date? Release date seems appropriate for the current or next year to see what is being released, but a simple A-Z is much easier for general browsing of past years. ♦ Dr. Blofeld 12:24, 10 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure that I have a strong opinion on this. The tables are sortable, so if you want an A-Z list, it's one-click away (but see my note further on), even if it's not as concise. That said, the 'cleaner' format does have a separate column for Director, which I think is good, but also one for Genre, which I think is problematic (unless sourced). Both lists have breaks in them that prevent a one-click sort of all the films on the list, which might be frustrating for readers. In the end I think which format is 'better' could depend on what kinds of information one is looking for. Was there any discussion about the changes to the format? DonIago (talk) 12:58, 10 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No discussion at all that I'm aware of. I wouldn't be opposed to having a separate list of films by release date but I think these lists should be simple A-Z, concise lists for quick browsing. The release lists are separated by months though, so A-Z isn't useful. ♦ Dr. Blofeld 13:54, 10 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Honestly, the alphabetical list (as demonstrated in List of American films of 1956) is much harder to read than the date-based list in List of American films of 1981. It's because of the whitespace in the Title column. The 1956 list is more cluttered, in that regard. Whichever way it's sorted, it'd be nice to retain good spacing. Useight (talk) 16:17, 10 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I wouldn't focus too much on spacing or formatting wikipedia to fit that. In the era of of people now able to adjust text size and other content on the site easily with a click of a toggle, it's never going to look the same for everyone. Andrzejbanas (talk) 09:30, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Don't you think the cast inclusion is excessive though Useight? You must be using a wider screen PC/laptop as it looks really bloated and cluttered on an iPad! I concede that the date format doesn't look as bad when viewed on a widescreen PC as it does on a small device. On a widescreen PC you could have a director, genre and even notes column if you cut the cast to the top billed stars. The problem is that the date format is harder to edit though.♦ Dr. Blofeld 11:20, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I agree that it's excessive. The cast should just be the actor/actress of the main character or two, if you ask me. But, yes, I always use my desktop computer. Useight (talk) 18:42, 13 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This was brought up somewhat similarly at Talk:List of American films of 2024. Generally, more for the side bar being that the sidebar causes some accessibility issues (i.e: not sure screen readers will pick up January being written up and down for example). I do feel like an excessive crew listing is going a bit overboard and it not condusive to sorting. Do we need to know who the crew to this extent, or at all? Most screenwriters aren't known by name. Directors are slightly more so. Andrzejbanas (talk) 16:23, 10 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed Andrzej. ♦ Dr. Blofeld 11:20, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think we could have two sets of lists for the US, by release date and by A-Z. I'm not opposed to by release date if we can have a full A-Z (as default). But I think the cast needs to be drastically cut for all lists.♦ Dr. Blofeld 08:12, 19 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I assume when you are saying two sets, you are talking about two columns? This would be my proposal. I'd use the notes section to indicate if a film is the production of more than one country "I.e: US-Canadian co-production" or if there are two films with the same title with one year, we can disambiguate it as a disambiguation factor that most people would catch. (i.e: the lead star, the director, etc.). Brevity is the soul of wit, and we probably should keep these tidy and easy to add too over becoming a database of credits. Andrzejbanas (talk) 20:04, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
A24 films released in the 2010s
Release date[a] Title Studio Notes Ref.
January 5 The Painter Republic Pictures [1]
January 12 Mean Girls Paramount Pictures, Broadway Video, Little Stranger [2]

Andrzejbanas (talk) 20:04, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The list should be initially sorted with a first column of release date. I support the above table example. However, I don't think a note column is needed. This is an overview so any additional information is in the article. If a specific note is needed, one can be added with {{efn}}. Gonnym (talk) 16:30, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for chiming in Gonnym. Happy to remove the "note" section for most lists like List of American films of 2024, like, its not likely needed for the List of American films article. I'm more thinking about it for articles like List of French films of 1963. Very few continental Europe productions are from one singular country, and often produce within the context of a co-production, often with Italy, Spain, West Germany, etc. I feel this is a bit critical to understanding why something like a major Italian feature of the era like 8½ would be included on a list of French film productions. That said, maybe the studios or production companies involved would be enough in this case. Pinging @Dr. Blofeld: as well to weigh in on this if he could so we have more of a communal discussion/agreement/disagreement within the project. Andrzejbanas (talk) 13:47, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Notes

  1. ^ The listed date refers to the film's public premiere, regardless if it opened in the United States.

References

  1. ^ D'Alessandro, Anthony (November 30, 2023). "Republic Pictures Picks Up The Painter For Paramount Global; Jon Voight Pic Plans Theatrical Release". Deadline Hollywood. Retrieved December 1, 2023.
  2. ^ Couch, Aaron (September 22, 2023). "'Smile 2,' 'Mean Girls' Musical Set 2024 Release Dates". The Hollywood Reporter. Retrieved September 22, 2023.

The problem with organizing film lists date-first instead of title-first is that they're organized by the date of commercial release, not the date of the initial premiere, which leaves films that premiere at film festivals but haven't gone into commercial release yet unable to be listed at all. For example, the Canadian lists are organized title first, which meant I could add any Canadian films that premiered at film festivals this year to List of Canadian films of 2024 right away, but for any country (US, France, etc.) whose lists are organized date-first, I had to leave stacks of films that premiered at Cannes or TIFF listed on the talk page for future editor attention if a future commercial-release date wasn't sourceable yet, even if the film had already premiered at a film festival.
But I shouldn't have had to do that: the moment a film's existence is known and sourceable at all, it should be able to be added to the relevant country list or lists right away, rather than having to wait weeks or months past its premiere at a film festival — especially since waiting to add a film to the list, instead of adding it right away, significantly increases the risk that the film will never get properly added to the list.
I additionally don't understand the argument above that "whitespace in the title column" makes the title-first list "harder" to read than the date-first version, as the date-first version still has "whitespace in the title column", and I fail to see that said whitespace hits differently if you put the release date before the title than it does if the release date is a later column. Bearcat (talk) 17:14, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not too particular about the date first issue either way, but the manual of style for films states we should list films by their first release where they are publicly available, whether that's at a film festival, theatrical, streaming or home video release. Generally I would wait to have a date solidified as anything could happen, but beyond that, I'm seeing it only as a mild quibble for dates/titles to take the first slot and I doubt it would co fuse any readers. Andrzejbanas (talk) 00:31, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed with Bearcat on the date coming first. I do think we should have A-Z as default but we could also have List of American films of 1981 (by release date) etc in the bloated format if there is dispute. I created the lists purely with the goal of having a comprehensive A-Z list by country.♦ Dr. Blofeld 11:47, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Dr. Blofeld:, @Bearcat:, @Gonnym:, i've made another draft here based on your comments. I don't really see the point of having a separate article (such as List of American films of 1981 (by release date)) for different sorting as we can easily have a "sort-table" function to let anyone sort the items the way they see fit. For consistency and to follow MOS:FILM. Per WP:FILMRELEASE, Release dates should therefore be restricted to the film's earliest release, whether it was at a film festival, a world premiere, or a public release

I'm proposing something like this then.

Opening Title Production company Ref.
January 5 The Bricklayer Vertical Entertainment, Millennium Media
January 4 DarkGame Gravitas Ventures [1]
January 5 Fugitive Dreams Freestyle Releasing [2]
January 5 He Went That Way Vertical Entertainment, Mister Smith Entertainment [3]
January 2 The Mummy Murders Gravitas Ventures [4]
January 5 Night Swim Universal Pictures, Blumhouse Productions , Atomic Monster [5]
January 5 The Painter Republic Pictures [6]
January 3 Self Reliance Neon, Hulu , MRC , Paramount Global Content Distribution [7]
January 5 Some Other Woman Radiant Films International, Balcony 9 Productions [8]
March 1 Dune: Part Two Warner Bros. Pictures, Legendary Pictures [9]
March 1 Spaceman Netflix, Tango Entertainment, Free Association [10]

I still stand by the idea of some sort of "extra" info, for some articles lie List of French films of 1963, just to clarify why there will be several predominantly Italian productions in there along with more predominantly French titles. On changing the list on the 2024 american films list, it has already been reverted by editors and as we are coming closer to some sort of consensus here, I'll pass on reverting those edits until we can come forward here. Andrzejbanas (talk) 17:54, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

My only concern is that WP:FILMRELEASE is a section of the template documentation for {{Infobox film}}, not a broad policy statement that binds anything else besides what date goes in the infobox. If the consensus is to stick with date-first lists over title-first lists, then we probably should establish a wider policy that extends FILMRELEASE beyond just what date goes in the infobox, but as of right now it only applies to the infobox.
And I still prefer title-first format, at any rate; in addition to my previously noted concerns, date-first format also makes the lists significantly harder to edit at all, since in addition to just adding a row for any new film you also have to find and adjust multiple rowspan numbers in order to not break the entire table. Even for me as an experienced editor who knows that, it's still enough of an added burden to make me deeply reluctant to even touch a date-first list at all — and amateur/inexperienced editors are highly likely to not even know about that and make edits that outright break the lists, thus creating extra work for other people to fix.
Tables should always be organized on the simplest possible format that includes all of the important information, rather than formats that complicate the editing process and increase the likelihood of errors. In this case, date-first deeply complicates the process of editing a list, because it requires supplementary adjustment of one or more rowspan numbers in addition to simply adding a row to the list for a film that's being added to it, while title-first eliminates that problem.
There are additionally some films which would remain unable to be added to a date-first list at all, because we can't properly source any exact release date. I created an article literally just yesterday about Wild Flowers, a Canadian short film with a notability-making award nomination and sufficient other coverage to clear GNG — and while I was able to establish where the film premiered, I was not able to find what exact day it screened at that festival (that information already isn't available even from the festival's own website anymore). Since List of Canadian films of 2024 is organized title-first rather than date-first, this isn't a problem — but if it had been organized date-first instead, I would not be able to add the film to that list at all due to the unconfirmability of a specific day. Bearcat (talk) 18:36, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Bearcat:, that will be an issue for several films and the release dates of older films, shorts, etc. are just not really known at the moment. While I think adding them is important, if you do not have a release date, it can still be added alphabetically with just an N/A tag or an Unknown tag. This prevents issues like this. Andrzejbanas (talk) 19:33, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
List it alphabetically where, if the lack of a confirmable release date means there's no date under which to list it? I'm not saying a release date column shouldn't be present, and have no issue with one being a later column, but the date shouldn't be the list's principal organizing criterion if we don't always even know what date a film can even go under in the first place. Title should be the first column, and release dates can be a later column, but the first column should be information that's always available for every film rather than information that's sometimes unlocatable. Bearcat (talk) 19:38, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I apologize if I wasn't clear, but generally I agree that the title should come first. The average person is going to know a film by its title, not so much by the date it came out. My suggestion was only to have it sortable so if readers want to see a film by its release date, they have the option. I've done an example of this [[User:Andrzejbanas/ListSample here]. Andrzejbanas (talk) 20:05, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't like the date being first on those lists.♦ Dr. Blofeld 17:57, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm happy to have it sorted by film title first. I apologize, I think I misunderstood your previous comment about it. Beyond that, are there any other issues. @Dr. Blofeld?
I'm happy to propose this otherwise.
Apologies for going back to re-edit this table. completely missed some clear points. I do think I agree with Blofeld that sorting by title is better. my points are the following.
  • Not all films have known specific release dates, especially with older material. A title however, is something key and unmissable. It is much easier to sort by a title, add films to a list without having to re-arrange a table with more complicated code. This makes it easier for editors.
    With newer films, dates change, either with production changing, with older films, newer material can be found. It is easier to sort out films this way.

For now this is preferred list.

I couldn't get the table to display correctly on the talk page, so I've moved it here. Andrzejbanas (talk) 18:43, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Andrzejbanas (talk) 18:33, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I would support sortable columns for release date and studio if we can fit them in. I just think the current release lists look horribly bloated on smaller devices and are much harder to browse than a simple A-Z. If we can get release date added I think we should go back to A-Z. ♦ Dr. Blofeld 09:06, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
My list above might have got buried in my back and forth hustle. But I've created a list that I think described what you are stating with this style here. Andrzejbanas (talk) 09:53, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm fine with any table that fixes the date issue, which to me is the most important MoS breaking part of those pages (but I'm against removing the date as titles and dates are must haves). So take my support for any table that has at least those two columns and the date is fixed correcly. Gonnym (talk) 11:32, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
While I appreciate everyone's comments, I think the only way we move forward is by agreeing to a proposal instead of declaring what we do or do not require. If we could get a solid support or not support for the table I suggested (link here for conevenience), we can probably move towards something we are all more comfortable with. Andrzejbanas (talk) 12:10, 18 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That looks fine. Just add a row scope which is missing (and no double "||" on a new row; you only need those if you put columns data on the same row) Gonnym (talk) 15:29, 18 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Noted! Thanks Gonnym. :) Andrzejbanas (talk) 15:54, 18 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If there is no further suggestions/requests. I'll start applying the changes. @Dr. Blofeld:, any further comments? Andrzejbanas (talk) 11:30, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You don't mean to remove director, actor and genre mentions? ♦ Dr. Blofeld 15:24, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, see, that's what I wanted to confirm. WP:LISTCRITERIA, "Selection criteria (also known as inclusion criteria or membership criteria) should be unambiguous, objective, and supported by reliable sources." The genre and the director are not key information to determining whether something is an American production or not (or any country for that matter). We already have List of horror films of 2024 for example, so I don't think genre or director is key to understanding what makes something an American production. While I find it interesting, I'm just trying to make it a more simple list that captures the key details. Generally, I think this follows the rules above more than listing other details. Andrzejbanas (talk) 14:40, 25 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Genre and director to me are more important than release date. I think it should be Title. Director. Cast. Genre. Studio. Release date.♦ Dr. Blofeld 14:44, 25 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
How is it important to the topic in the list in question? Like, other than I kind of like it, I don't see how its essential knowledge. Honestly, the release date and the company involved are really the only two key criteria to make it fit the topic in question. and still follow WP:LISTCRITERIA by being objective. Andrzejbanas (talk) 15:13, 25 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Dr. Blofeld: as I think we should try to move forward and as only you @Gonnym: have weighed in. Per the list criteria rule I do not see why it is important to know the director, genre, or the cast. Most directors and actors have their own filmography sections and we do not generally include whether their films are American/French/Japanese etc. As for genre, we already have List of horror films and other similar genre categories that have sortable lists to identify films by genre. As most genre films films from the past few years are various hybrids of genres (see the article Action film for more on this), trying to establish genres within the list will only add discrepancies between articles and lists that becomes unmanageable. For these reasons I think we should move forward with the list I've proposed and can make suggestions if further key information becomes clear. Andrzejbanas (talk) 14:51, 29 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As an overview, knowing who the director and cast is is much more important than release date or studio. ♦ Dr. Blofeld 14:58, 29 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
While I appreciate your prompt response, may I ask why this is key information? It does not seem related to the topic as the director or cast or genre does not bare any key information to the topic of the list. I don't wnat to argue but you have said its important twice, but have not made it clear why its essential to a topic. Your suggestion would go against MOS:LONGSEQ "Keep lists and tables as short as feasible for their purpose and scope: material within a list should relate to the article topic without going into unnecessary detail;" The director, cast, and genre have no relevance on a films year or nationality. Andrzejbanas (talk) 16:47, 29 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ "First look, world sales deal unveiled for Ed Westwick thriller 'Darkgame' (exclusive)". Screen Daily. September 9, 2022. Retrieved December 26, 2023.
  2. ^ "Fugitive Dreams - The Numbers". The Numbers. January 16, 2024. Retrieved January 16, 2024.
  3. ^ McArdle, Tommy (December 14, 2023). "Jacob Elordi Plays a Killer Hitchhiker Picked Up by Zachary Quinto in He Went That Way Trailer (Exclusive)". People. Retrieved December 14, 2023.
  4. ^ "Serial Killer Horror 'The Mummy Murders' Releases January". Culture Elixir. December 26, 2023. Retrieved December 26, 2023.
  5. ^ D'Alessandro, Anthony (April 7, 2023). "Night Swim From Universal, Atomic Monster & Blumhouse To Take Earlier Dip In 2024". Deadline Hollywood. Retrieved April 7, 2023.
  6. ^ D'Alessandro, Anthony (November 30, 2023). "Republic Pictures Picks Up The Painter For Paramount Global; Jon Voight Pic Plans Theatrical Release". Deadline Hollywood. Retrieved December 1, 2023.
  7. ^ D'Alessandro, Anthony (20 December 2023). "Neon To Release Jake Johnson's 'Self Reliance' In Theaters For One Night Only Before Hulu Run". Deadline Hollywood. Retrieved 21 December 2023.
  8. ^ Devore, Britta (December 15, 2023). "Ashley Greene Stalks Tom Felton in First 'Some Other Woman' Trailer [Exclusive]". Collider. Archived from the original on January 2, 2024.
  9. ^ Sharf, Zack (November 17, 2023). "'Dune: Part Two' Release Date Moves Up Two Weeks to Kick Off March 2024". Variety.com. Retrieved November 17, 2023.
  10. ^ Thompson, Jaden (December 19, 2023). "Adam Sandler Is an Astronaut in Peril in 'Spaceman' First Look, Netflix Sets March 2024 Release Date". Variety. Retrieved December 19, 2023.

feedback request on Might Joe Young production section

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Hello WikiProject Film, I work at the BYU Library. My student @Heidi Pusey BYU and I have been working on film pages that Marian C. Cooper was involved with (we have his papers in our archive). Heidi recently finished writing the production section for Mighty Joe Young (1949 film). We're used to researching films where there isn't a lot of information on the production, so we usually include whatever information we can find. For this film, there was a lot more information about its production. Would someone be willing to read the section and tell us if it's too detailed? Thank you, Rachel Helps (BYU) (talk) 18:46, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think it looks very good. While there is a lot of detail, for a film of this type and the era it was made in, I don't think it is necessarily overly detailed. I think the distinction between development and animation isn't clear with animation content seemingly in the development section. It looks like updates have been made to the release section too. It notes a release in New England/New York but not clear when that happened so would be useful to clarify that. Sudiani (talk) 22:41, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
thank you Sudiani! Heidi made some changes to the organization based on your and others' feedback. Rachel Helps (BYU) (talk) 20:37, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move at Talk:The Congress of Mother-in-Laws#Requested move 22 October 2024

[edit]

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:The Congress of Mother-in-Laws#Requested move 22 October 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Raladic (talk) 00:47, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Enchanted Cottage (1924)

[edit]

Some help is requested here by PrinceArchelaus and Merry medievalist:

--David Tornheim (talk) 13:10, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, but I think we have resolved the plot summary by now. I've contacted Merry medievalist on their talk page and have made the needed corrections. I'm ready to move on to other articles now. PrinceArchelaus (talk) 15:32, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move at Talk:List of highest-grossing Indian films#Requested move 1 November 2024

[edit]

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:List of highest-grossing Indian films#Requested move 1 November 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. The Herald (Benison) (talk) 10:26, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move at Talk:The King of Comedy (film)#Requested move 2 November 2024

[edit]

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:The King of Comedy (film)#Requested move 2 November 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Dantus21 (talk) 01:28, 2 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

production credits in-text?

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Hi, my student and I are still working on film pages. We've noticed that sometimes we will have information that someone had a specific role in production (like that they were the art director or cinematographer), but not anything else. Is it better to put that information in the infobox (with a citation) than to mention it in the text of the production section?

Rachel Helps (BYU) (talk) 20:36, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If it is just the name, then I would just put in the infobox. If there is interesting information about their work, then I would also mention it in the article. Sudiani (talk) 20:43, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you, Sudiani. With that in mind I'm going to make some changes to an article I've been working on. Heidi Pusey BYU (talk) 21:22, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Technically, as recommended at MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE, the infobox shouldn't be including any information that isn't discussed somewhere within the article. In practice for things like credits that may not occur in practice...but perhaps it should. DonIago (talk) 23:47, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
While I understand the general point for infoboxes, it seems to defeat the whole purpose of the data that has been decided to be included in the infobox. For example, do we expect all running times to be included in the main article and the infobox? It seems kinda pointless to duplicate the data unless there is anything additional to mention. Sudiani (talk) 14:30, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure what the original impetus for the wording was, and it's a guideline in any case, not a policy. I was merely pointing it out, since the answer to Rachel's question seems to be, "Ideally, both." DonIago (talk) 16:03, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hi, Rachel. The infobox has a limited set of parameters, so an editor could not add art director there anyway. The preference has been to keep the infobox credits high-level, so there are some that are not included. Even if we added new parameters as optional, I think the organic tendency of editors is to flesh out every parameter regardless of a crew member's importance to the film.
That said, like DonIago said, ideally the infobox should be a summary of what is in the article body. I think in a well-developed article, everything but runtime would be covered in the body. For crew members, my thinking has been that the "Starring" parameter in the infobox is a high-level summary of the article body's cast list. In the same vein, I generally support having a crew list in the article body, and the infobox's crew-related parameters can be seen as a high-level summary of that. Like with cast lists, to avoid being WP:INDISCRIMINATE, crew lists should be based on some kind of rule of thumb like a reliable source listing a specific set of crew credits. I did that at Panic Room § Production. One benefit of identifying crew members more explicitly (beyond what is in the infobox) is to encourage cross-linking. Like if we have an very famous costume designer, it seems remiss to me that they would not be at least named in articles of films they contributed to.
Also, it's possible that one could prefer to only weave in crew members in a "Production" section, but I think it helps to highlight the crew in a list and to discuss their contributions to the film afterward. If not a list, perhaps at least a list sentence to name crew members at the end of a "Production" section, after writing about crew members that have detailed coverage about their contributions. Some editors may oppose a crew list or mere naming of crew members not in the infobox, but there are no Wikiproject Film guidelines against that. Just because it hasn't been done much doesn't mean it can't be done more, as long as it fits policies and guidelines (like WP:INDISCRIMINATE). Erik (talk | contrib) (ping me) 17:54, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for all the responses, it's very helpful! It sounds like there isn't consensus, but that listing information in the infobox is practiced (even if it is against the guideline). It also sounds like having a list of production staff in the production section is acceptable. Rachel Helps (BYU) (talk) 20:05, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Well, nobody lists art directors in the infobox because there's no field for them. Listing cinematographers is not only "practiced", but I'd say de facto de rigueur (the same goes for all roles the infobox has fields for). Nardog (talk) 21:35, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, I meant listing production credits in the infobox without mention in the body of the page. I've seen it many times. Rachel Helps (BYU) (talk) 18:36, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move at Talk:Terrifier (film series)#Requested move 3 November 2024

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There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Terrifier (film series)#Requested move 3 November 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Reading Beans, Duke of Rivia 05:14, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move at Talk:The "Human" Factor (1975 film)#Requested move 31 October 2024

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There is a requested move discussion at Talk:The "Human" Factor (1975 film)#Requested move 31 October 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 17:01, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move at Talk:Crime 101 (2025 film)#Requested move 6 November 2024

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There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Crime 101 (2025 film)#Requested move 6 November 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Raladic (talk) 04:28, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Altered Titles

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I'm after second opinions on this sinec I proposed and supported the restoration of The Empire Strikes Back to its original and common title rather than the wordy Star Wars Episode V Chapter 6 Paragraph 2 Sentence 4 word 6: The Empire Strikes Back, but I feel like Mission: Impossible – Dead Reckoning Part One, which has since dropped the "Part One" is being pedantic, especially as a footnote has been added to Mission: Impossible – Fallout to explain the name change. I feel like this is a case where it should just be Mission Impossible - Dead Reckoning with a footnote (on that page only) in the lede to explain the name change. Or should we be strict and go with what it was? I'm not sure I count "Part X" as part of a title but others may. Darkwarriorblake (talk) 21:03, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've sort of struggled with alternative titles again. I usually find just saying "this film has a dozen alternative titles". I try to include them when there is at least a bit of context and gives users the ability to place their own level of weight on the title. Did it get re-released under a new name like Barbarella as Barbarella: Queen of the Galaxy? Was this title a new edit, new marketing? The more info we have on the name change, the more prominence we can probably give. Otherwise, I find it hard to say which title is really more prominent that isn't WP:OR, but try to stick with titles that most people would have seen or what title the film is used most of the time when discussed. Andrzejbanas (talk) 00:59, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Dates in plot

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Another one I'd like input on. I and others have fought against including dates in films that do not mention them, even if they may be established retrospectively elsewhere, as is the case with Aliens (film), which i think takes place in 2146. On the flip side I've worked on Starship Troopers (film) which already had a reference in for it taking place in the 23rd century and so I rolled with it since it's so far into the future I think establishing it helps. An IP editor has removed "23rd century" as identified by Verhoeven on the DVD commentary and replaced it with future. I think future is too vague and could mean next week or 10 years, but as with the altered titles section above I'm not sure if I'm being too rigid or just using what is appropriate for the respective articles. Darkwarriorblake (talk) 21:08, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'd probably apply WP:WEIGHT, specifically "Undue weight can be given in several ways, including but not limited to the depth of detail, the quantity of text, prominence of placement, the juxtaposition of statements, and the use of imagery." In a film like Groundhog Day where the day keeps repeating, or a period film, the era is pretty intrinsic to the plot or if the film takes place in a certain year so it can be "20 years after a war/apocalypse/etc.", maybe that is relevant. If you can explain the plot and its in a generic future that has no real relevance of time and place, I do not think we need to harp on specific details that do not really change anyone's understanding of the narrative. Andrzejbanas (talk) 00:52, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think if it is not specified in the film or later films/franchise, it is probably best not to be specific. The article for the novel suggests that it is set 700 years in the future, so the 27th century. Would Verhoeven have specifically decided to set the movie 4 centuries earlier than the novel? The franchise page says "set hundreds of years in the future" which seems more appropriate than something sourced from a DVD commentary. Sudiani (talk) 21:52, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move at Talk:Rhythm and Hues Studios#Requested move 13 November 2024

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There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Rhythm and Hues Studios#Requested move 13 November 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. 𝚈𝚘𝚟𝚝 (𝚝𝚊𝚕𝚔𝚟𝚝) 22:10, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Batman returns

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Hi I’m looking for other opinions on Batman returns modern reception claims. As shown here

In the years since its release, Batman Returns has been positively reappraised. It is now regarded as among the best superhero films ever made, the best sequels, and the best Batman films made. Screen Rant called it the best Batman film of the 20th century and, in 2018, GamesRadar+ named it the best Batman film. Batman Returns was number 401 on Empire's 2008 list of the 500 greatest movies of all time. Some publications have identified Batman Returns as part of Burton's unofficial Christmas trilogy, bookended by Edward Scissorhands and The Nightmare Before Christmas, and it has become an alternative-holiday film along with films such as Die Hard (1988). Some publications have also listed it as one of the best Christmas films.

None of these sources are authoritative or critical consensus for the claims of best Batman films, sequels and superhero films ever. Most of them are listicles. But I would like to see what others think. Thank you Hi-ci335 (talk) 23:13, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Honestly, I would try to find more retrospective reviews of the film over lists. None of them suggest any new critical consensus and are kind of just sandwiching it into somewhat niche genres without addressing any other specific highs or lows about the film. Two retrospective reviews do not really suggest that there is any new consensus. Andrzejbanas (talk) 00:42, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
[Comment from blocked user removed, see below.]
Just to follow up, I'm not certain they should stay or not, but some more in-depth general review over a ranking on a list is superior content for a reception section. Andrzejbanas (talk) 06:49, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Let's not sugarcoat it: the sourcing is bad. Screen Rant is a low-quality source (to a large extent a listicle content farm) whose uses on Wikipedia are limited. It is reliable enough for straightforward statements of fact within its area of competency (entertainment, roughly speaking), but not for anything remotely controversial, WP:BLP material, or any kind of analysis. It is likewise not a source that should be used for establishing WP:Notability or assessing WP:Due weight. I'm not as familiar with GamesRadar+, but I do not believe it is much better—and I daresay it is in no way an adequate source to use for this purpose. Either their assessment is an outlier, in which case it is WP:UNDUE, or it is typical, in which case a much higher-quality source should be used. Comic Book Resources (cited for the first sentence) is similar to Screen Rant in terms of quality—i.e. wholly inadequate for the purpose. I haven't taken a close look at the "best of" sources, but "among the best" is rarely a meaningful statement in cases like this and appearances on list articles is weak evidence. The paragraph as a whole represents a pretty clear case of superlative-chasing. TompaDompa (talk) 13:44, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Agree with Tompa. Screen Rant is a low quality source, GamesRadar is better but it's primarily a games publication and isn't a good enough source for supporting the claims in the topic sentence. Likewise, a best of list that's hundreds of films holds a lot less weight than something more curated. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs talk 16:10, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
[Comment removed, see below.]
Yep. We've faced these issues with video game topics in the past few years, where listicle and rating content gets stuffed together to make things seem bigger than they are, and it's just generally not that noteworthy (I can find a ton of very similar Screen Rant articles where you list X video game as "top X first-person shooters with a space marine" or "top Y time travel episodes in Star Trek" and they don't really add up to much versus a single, more authoritative source.) Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs talk 20:46, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
[Comment removed, see below.]
Barry Wom, this is clearly another Sock of the guy. Darkwarriorblake (talk) 08:12, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Clearly. Comments removed. Barry Wom (talk) 08:22, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
[Comment from blocked user removed, see below.]
F's sake Jasper, get a life. Barry Wom Darkwarriorblake (talk) 20:23, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
[Comment from blocked user removed, see below.]
[Comment from blocked user removed, see below.]
[Comment from blocked user removed, see below.]
Indeffed. Note to other editors, please DFTT. Acroterion (talk) 02:00, 16 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
[Comment from blocked user removed, see below.]

Note: Regardless of the validity of the argument, the OP has been blocked as a sock of Jaszen [1], an editor whose entire raison d'être is arguing over the level of praise in film articles, particularly Batman ones. Barry Wom (talk) 14:55, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ha, I knew I recognized the way they write. And to be clear to anyone checking my contributions history, I'm working in Batman Returns for FA so things like the moans above are being worked on based on standards defined at my last few FAs. Darkwarriorblake (talk) 16:10, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move at Talk:Films about intersex#Requested move 14 November 2024

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There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Films about intersex#Requested move 14 November 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Web-julio (talk) 20:52, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move at Talk:The Mexican#Requested move 1 November 2024

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There is a requested move discussion at Talk:The Mexican#Requested move 1 November 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Raladic (talk) 22:41, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Trembling Before G-d under FA review

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I have nominated Trembling Before G-d for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets the featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Delist" in regards to the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. George Ho (talk) 05:36, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

FA review of Boogeyman 2

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A user has nominated Boogeyman 2 for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets the featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Delist" in regards to the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. SnowFire (talk) 17:00, 27 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Good article reassessment for Batman in film

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Batman in film has been nominated for a good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. Z1720 (talk) 20:33, 27 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Naanum Rowdy Dhaan

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Why this edit? Revirvlkodlaku, I find your rationale, that this "adds nothing of value to the reader, unless they are already familiar with Kill Dil and its characters", dumb. I think it induces curiosity in the reader to learn more about something they may not know of. As if Saul Goodman isn't allowed to mention that his speaking style was inspired by Robert Evans (I wasn't aware of him before), or the numerous characters that inspired Lalo Salamanca's characterisation. Kailash29792 (talk) 08:59, 29 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Kailash29792, I think this discussion more appropriately belongs on the film's talk page, where I'll be happy to discuss it with you in a civil manner. I'll let you know that if you use words like "dumb" to disparage me or my edits, then we won't get far, and I may even report you for abusive language. Revirvlkodlaku (talk) 09:03, 29 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry I didn't intend to launch a personal attack, it's only your rationale that looked odd to me. Once again I'll apologise if "odd" is a personal attack. I posted here only to seek consensus. Kailash29792 (talk) 10:43, 29 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I support the addition of this detail. It's common to report what past performance or character inspired a said work's actor of focus in their effort. Not to mention that it is a good example of cross-linking, which Wikipedia encourages. Readers may get interested in this statement and check out Kill Dil for themselves. Links exist especially to increase readers' understanding of various topics. Furthermore, MOS:FILMCAST says, "Real-world context may be about how the role was written, how the actor came to be cast, or what preparations were necessary for filming." So this detail fits that real-world context. Erik (talk | contrib) (ping me) 12:38, 29 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you Erik! In the source, the actor says, "My role is similar to the one Govinda played in Kill Dhill [sic]". I wrote the same (no plagiarism) but Revirvlkodlaku removed it. I thought only the wording was unacceptable, so I readded with "inspired" instead of "similar" but he removed it again. May it be re-added with consensus? Is "inspired" not too different from "similar" in this case? Kailash29792 (talk) 12:56, 29 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That sounds fair to me; thanks for the input, Erik. Kailash29792, I see nothing wrong with calling my edit "odd", as it's not necessarily derogatory. Revirvlkodlaku (talk) 13:01, 29 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Move discussion notice

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A move discussion is underway concerning the titles of several films which may be of interest to this project. Interested parties can join the discussion. SerialNumber54129 10:24, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Male surname / Female given name

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Many WP film plot descriptions use a convention of male characters being referred to by their surname while female characters are referred to by their given name.

1. Has there been previous discussion of this disparity, in which case was there a conclusion and should it be added to the MOS?

2. If not, can we discuss it now? Masato.harada (talk) 11:09, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I believe you're supposed to refer to them by their common name and be consistent so shouldn't be referring to men as their surname and women by their first name in the same plot summary. That said, at least socially, it seems weird to refer to a woman by her surname but seems to be common for a man. John McClane is often referred to as "McClane" but Holly is always "Holly" or "Ms Genarro" or "Mrs McClane" in Rickman's perfect delivery. Darkwarriorblake (talk) 12:30, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Generally the credited name is used. The credited name will match the social conventions for names in the fictional world of the story. The fallback Wikipedia convention is MOS:SURNAME and applies to both sexes. Geraldo Perez (talk) 16:32, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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