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You can not be serious

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I’d have to imagine this has been argued many times before and some absurd article overlord won but … Chinese Whispers … seriously?? Shit is comical. CarlStrokes (talk) 07:23, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I just found out about it today, and yes, it's comical. I will start RM now. Levivich (talk) 23:46, 15 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 15 August 2024

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Chinese whispers → Telephone game – How about, given the choice between using a racist name popular in the former British Empire, and a non-racist name popular amongst more people in the rest of the world, we choose the non-racist name? It's an embarrassment to Wikipedia that the many prior RMs have centered around WP:ENGVAR--as if racism is a matter of English variation--and WP:RETAIN--as if we should continue to have a racist name because we've always had a racist name. Given the choice of two common, recognizable, natural, precise, concise, and consistent names, let's go with the one that does not imply something negative about Chinese people. Levivich (talk) 23:51, 15 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Notified WT:GAMES, WT:TELECOM, WT:CHINA. Levivich (talk) 23:49, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm not convinced it's overtly racist (and that's not a phrase I often say). To be honest, I've never heard that name before today, so I did a bit of searching. I found a few marginally WP:RS which dance around the question without concluding one way or another, i.e. "Chinese Whispers - Meaning & Origin Of The Phrase". Phrase Finder. Retrieved 15 August 2024.. "Definition of CHINESE WHISPERS". merriam-webster.com. Retrieved 15 August 2024. doesn't say anything about that at all. And if you're looking for academic literature, I found "Chinese Whispers on JSTOR". www-jstor-org.wikipedialibrary.idm.oclc.org. Retrieved 15 August 2024. which talks about the origins of the name but also doesn't conclude that it's racist. If we're going to insist on WP:RS for the text of our articles, I think we should also insist on WP:RS for how we title them. RoySmith (talk) 00:48, 16 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I don't think of Phrase Finder as an RS, or any kind of authority on this, particularly as it's a UK source and the author writes:

    The name ‘Chinese Whispers’ was adopted for the game in the UK in the mid 20th century, prior to that it was known as ‘Russian Scandal’ or ‘Russian Gossip’. The reason for the change isn’t clear. It is sometimes suggested that the phrase is a racial slur and is intended to convey the idea that the Chinese talk nonsense. I see no reason to assume that. The English aren’t especially badly disposed towards the Chinese – there are many other races on the UK hit list above the Chinese. I think the decision by whoever coined the phrase had more to do with the Chinese language being more incomprehensible to English ears than Russian. If there is any racial stereotyping inherent in the phrase it may be by an association with the idea that the Chinese are inscrutable.

    I'm not giving much weight to a source that says it's not racist because the English are not especially badly disposed towards the Chinese compared to how racist the English are towards other peoples, and anyway the Chinese are incomprehensible or inscrutable.
    Here are some other sources:

    • In this context, the old children’s game that is still called ‘Chinese Whispers’ in Britain springs to mind. Not only does Europe send unclear messages, non-Europeans are often reluctant to listen. Issues are ‘lost in translation’ and sometimes players twist the message to suit their own interests. ... There is one initial caveat: the very notion of ‘Chinese Whispers’—or ‘Indian Summers’, for that matter—is strongly indicative of Europe’s crucial mindset problem. Most Europeans still imply that the causes of confusion and miscommunication, if and when they occur, are located outside Europe. ... I will suggest abandoning Eurocentric rhetoric in pursuit of a relevant and open dialogue in today’s world of many worlds. ... Europeans might still name the game ‘Chinese Whispers’, but everyone else refers to ‘Belgian Waffles’ instead.
      — MAYER, H. (2008). "Is it still called “Chinese Whispers”? The EU’s rhetoric and action as a responsible global institution." International Affairs, 84(1), 62–79. doi:10.1111/j.1468-2346.2008.00689.x

    • The game is derived from dark origins, evolving from a racist idea in the mid 20th century that Chinese people spoke in a way that was deliberately unintelligible. With the majority of people now realising the derogatory nature of the name, the game is mostly referred to as the telephone game.
      — News.com.au [1]

    • The notion of “Chinese whispers” stems from a racist idea in the 1800s that Chinese people spoke in a way that was deliberately unintelligible. It associates the Chinese language with “confusion” and “incomprehensibility”. Now, the game is more commonly referred to as “the telephone game” in the United States.
      — The Chronicle (Australia) [2]

    • Though engaging in the fun word play game of passing on a whispered phrase might be a regular occurrence, the term itself comes from negative stereotypes established in America during the height of Chinese immigration that framed the sound of Chinese people speaking as unintelligible or nonsense. These days, the better term is to call the game Telephone.
      — Yahoo! Lifestyle [3]

    • It is supposed that the origin of this phrase has something to do with the Chinese language being difficult to understand and/or translate. Regardless, it's probably better the refer to poorly transmitted gossip as "a game of Telephone."
      — HuffPost [4]

    These aren't really RS either, like Phrase Finder, but as a bonus:
    • "“Chinese Whispers” - A reflection on language and turning down old phrases"
    • Phil Wang's book excerpt in The Times [5] refers to "Chinese virus" as The new Chinese whispers.
    • Phil Wang quoted in The Guardian [6]: We just call Chinese whispers ‘whispers’.
    Bottom line: it doesn't have to be overtly racist; as between a title that is maybe racist, and a title that is not at all racist, I'll choose the latter. Levivich (talk) 02:03, 16 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support move, as per the argument of Levivich

Irruptive Creditor (talk) 04:36, 16 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support move, based on sources quoted above, Rjjiii (talk) 07:41, 16 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support move – Common name varies regionally, so let's settle on one that doesn't sound racist or cringeworthy ClaudineChionh (she/her · talk · contribs · email) 08:34, 16 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per Talk:Chinese whispers/Archive 1#Let's close the name issue. As noted more sources use "Chinese whispers" than "telephone\telephone game", the term is less ambiguous and as noted in May 2021 the first major contributor used British English so WP:RETAIN applies. In England no one would probably know what "telephone game" is as I've never heard it used we use the term "Chinese whispers" as a metaphor when rumours are spread. Yes we don't want to appear to be racist but I've never heard anyone in England think its racist (except maybe when I asked someone a few years ago due to the previous discussion which I don't think they said yes anway) and as noted the name may come from the Great Wall of China. Are names like Chinese wall also offensive? If it was terms like Scottish whispers or Australian whispers we might find them offensive but in Chinese they probably won't be especially if they were to come from a source that isn't to do with the language. Crouch, Swale (talk) 17:57, 16 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • Crouch: uh... I've never heard anyone in England think its racist is not equivalent to 'this is not racist/this does not sound racist'. And as an Australian of Chinese descent, sure, I don't encounter 'telephone game' very often, but I do die a little inside whenever I hear terms like 'Chinese whispers' or 'Chinese wall' used without question, and why on earth do you think it's less offensive than 'Scottish whispers' or 'Australian whispers'? — ClaudineChionh (she/her · talk · contribs · email) 02:25, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose your argument for moving it involves showing sources that clearly demonstrate it as the common name. The term is also more precise, there's only one game known as Chinese whispers but 'telephone game' can refer to multiple things. Traumnovelle (talk) 20:57, 16 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Traumnovelle:
the old children’s game that is still called ‘Chinese Whispers’ in Britain ... Europeans might still name the game ‘Chinese Whispers’, but everyone else ...
With the majority of people now realising the derogatory nature of the name, the game is mostly referred to as the telephone game.
Now, the game is more commonly referred to as “the telephone game” in the United States.
These days, the better term is to call the game Telephone.
better the refer to poorly transmitted gossip as "a game of Telephone."
Which of these clearly demonstrate "Chinese whispers" as the common name?
What other notable topics does "Telephone game" refer to? Levivich (talk) 21:09, 16 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That's just for the United States and Canada. It's known as Chinese whispers in every other English speaking country.
Aside from the hat note you can see with Google Trends that the searches for 'telephone game' have nothing to do with Chinese whispers: [7]. Telephone game itself should probably be a disambiguation with mobile phone game rather than a redirect here, let alone the main title. Traumnovelle (talk) 21:13, 16 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's not just for the US and Canada; it's also at least Australia (according to the Australian source above), and according to another source above, "Chinese whispers" is only popular in Britain. US+Canada+Australia = 400 million people; UK = 67 million people. The sources say that "Telephone" is more common than "Chinese whispers," and per capita, by a factor of 6x.
As for Telephone game (game theory), that was the article that was created during one of the RMs by someone opposed to moving this to "Telephone" on the grounds of ambiguity. Manufactured ambiguity. The idea that the obscure game theory example would be mistaken for the common children's game is absurd. Levivich (talk) 16:40, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support move I think one could argue for either term being the common name (although personally I never heard of it by this name until today, and I grew up in a time and place where casual racism was prevelant). Between the two choices, using the obviously not racist one seems best, while continuing to mention the other name in the article text. Mistakes were made in the naming of things in the past, and although we aren't here to right great wrongs we have a choice here, so why not make the right choice? Just Step Sideways from this world ..... today 21:20, 16 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose The proposal has been made several times before without success and so repeating it once again is vexatious. The claim that it's racist is absurd as Chinese is a language/culture/country, not a race. What's really at work here is Americanism - Americans insisting that we have to do things their way, contrary to WP:ENGVAR. There are plenty of other traditional games named in this way such as British bulldog, Chinese checkers, Double Dutch, French cricket, Hopscotch, Pig Latin, etc. The article has been stable at this title for many years and so WP:RETAIN applies, as before. Andrew🐉(talk) 21:59, 16 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Wow, "you can't be racist against Chinese people" was not on my spurious arguments bingo card. Funny that we have an entire article about it then. Also interesting that you are assigning motivations not in evidence to other users. Just Step Sideways from this world ..... today 22:20, 16 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    This is purely an ENGVAR issue and we also have an article anti-British sentiment too. There's no pressure to change the title of Chinese checkers because that's familiar in US English. That game was actually invented in Germany but the Chinese branding was invented in the US.
    For another example, see Chinese burn. That's the name familiar to children in Britain but the article is titled Indian burn because that's the name familiar in the US. The etymologies for these names are obscure because they are generated in an organic way in playgrounds and only enter adult literature later. The claims that it's racist are fanciful false etymology like the complaints about words like "crowbar" and "picnic".
    Andrew🐉(talk) 06:16, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Oh for Pete's sake, "Chinese checkers" isn't derogatory like "Chinese whispers." The whole reason it's called "Chinese whispers" is because of -- as the sources quoted above say -- the stereotype that Chinese people are incomprehensible or inscrutable. "Chinese checkers" doesn't carry that connotation. It's amazing how you weigh the considerations at play here: on the one hand, a derogatory stereotype vs. on the other hand, that's how it's always been called in my country! 🙄 Levivich (talk) 16:27, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support alternate move to Telephone (game) as it was in 2020, not because I am necessarily convinced the current name is offensive, but because there's an equally common name that is completely inoffensive, so there's no apparent reason to leave it here, nor was there an apparent reason to move it in the first place from that name. I oppose Telephone game for the same reasons as in 2020, it can refer to any game played using a telephone. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 16:42, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I support a move to Telephone (game) as an alt. Either that or Telephone game works for me. Levivich (talk) 17:00, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. I acknowledge that both terms are recognizable enough to considered the common name (Amendment: per others, 'telephone game' is not the common name everywhere and the term is too ambiguous for those not familiar it) when talking about/referencing the game, but 'Chinese whispers' as a metaphor conveys a singular meaning. In biology and network science, 'Chinese whispers' is used as an analogy for imperfect transmission. On the other hand, the term 'telephone game' is too ambiguous, as it is associated with different etymologies when used; such as game theory where the etymology is "a telephone call was cut off then the caller would redial". I do also believe it's a stretch to suggest that 'telephone game' could ever refer to a mobile phone game. Svampesky (talk) 19:12, 17 August 2024 (UTC); amended 11:29, 18 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    It's not even a stretch. If you look at the Google data for the search it's quite clear a lot of people searching for 'telephone game' are looking for things other than Chinese whispers. Traumnovelle (talk) 21:20, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I think my !vote might have been poorly worded. The term 'telephone game' is commonly used to refer to this specific game when naming this specific game as much as 'Chinese whispers' is used. However, in a broader context, the term 'telephone game' is too ambiguous. Every metaphorical derivative of 'Chinese whispers' originates from this game, whereas not every metaphorical derivative of the 'telephone game' comes from it, making the former less ambiguous. Svampesky (talk) 21:33, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I don't think it was poorly worded. I was just pointing out that 'telephone game' referring to mobile phone games isn't a stretch and is a common search term evidently. Traumnovelle (talk) 21:58, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Telephone game, per nom. —-SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:08, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Telephone game (first preference) or Telephone (game) (2nd preference). Both Google Trends and Ngrams indicate that telephone game is the more common term globally (and also that "telephone game" is a common term, hence my preference towards the natural form). Ngrams even indicates that the use of "Chinese whispers" may be declining in British English literature specifically, though less conclusively: [8] I'm primarily swayed by Levivich's argument, though; when choosing between two valid terms, one of which clearly carries racial implications and the other does not, we should prefer the neutral term. This has nothing to do with ENGVAR, as it should apply regardless of where the racially insensitive term is used (and indeed, American English has quite the collection of racially insensitive language itself). Dylnuge (Talk • Edits) 01:37, 18 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    If you actually look at the trends data it's quite obvious a lot of the searches are not related to Chinese whispers. The top related queries are about 'gartic' which is an unrelated game. Ngrams can't distinguish between telephone game (Chinese whispers) and other uses of telephone game. Traumnovelle (talk) 01:49, 18 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    "Related queries" are not always necessarily related; by the same argument you're making here, people searching for "Chinese whispers" potentially intended to search for Fearless Whispers (indeed, some might have; we cannot know). Also, Gartic Phone is an online version of Telephone Pictionary, which itself is a variant of this game (that second link redirects to this article). Calling it fully unrelated is a stretch; it's calling itself a "telephone game" because that's a well recognized and common name for the subject of this article. Neither Ngrams or Trends are perfect, but it's not obvious to me in any way that the data should be preferentially discounted, especially as you've neglected to provide any evidence to the contrary. I stand by the accuracy of my comment. Dylnuge (Talk • Edits) 03:57, 18 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Related queries are other terms the same people searched for. Fearless Whispers doesn't actually appear in the results, so no we can be certain that isn't the case.
    >Telephone Pictionary, which itself is a variant of this game (that second link redirects to this article).
    Which makes 'telephone game' an even more vague term with multiple definitions? Traumnovelle (talk) 04:02, 18 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    At the time of posting, "Fearless Whispers" is first under rising and 24th under top related queries for "Chinese whispers"—the exact same position I see "gartic phone" for "telephone game". Related queries change quickly, so it's possible you saw something else (though I'm still seeing those results), but I didn't pull it out of thin air. Meanwhile, do you actually have sources using the phrase "telephone game" to mean mobile game or any other distinct and different term? I can't find any evidence of anyone doing so, and the results I get for searching telephone game on both Google and Bing don't suggest that happens with any regularity. Dylnuge (Talk • Edits) 13:33, 18 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. There seems to be no good evidence that the origin of the name involves offensive racial slurs. Rather, people are supposedly taking offence just because others might conceive that the origin involves racism. It's analogous to right-on objections to "manhole" (from Latin manus, a hand) or "niggardly" (from Middle English nigon). At the very worst, the only potential racist implication is that foreigners with their own very different language are liable to be incomprehensible to English-speakers, which I think nobody can deny is often true. Would you really mind at all if the Chinese called the game "English whispers"? As a Brit, I only know the game as "Chinese whispers"; I would not understand "telephone game". Wikipedia should respect and reflect usage, not evangelise. JMCHutchinson (talk) 10:45, 18 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Support as the common name, I've never heard of this game called anything else but telephone. We shouldn't give primacy to a select few countries where this is called Chinese whispers. Framing the move proposal around racism accusations set the wrong tone for this dicussion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Killuminator (talk • contribs)
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