Talk:Peter Leko

name change

Changing to Peter Leko' as this is the common English spelling (please note that that this is the english wikipedia), as per WP:Naming. Themindset 22:21, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

The only really relevant statement in Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English) is the following: There is disagreement over what article title to use when a native name uses the Latin alphabet with diacritics (or "accent marks") but general English usage omits the diacritics. A survey that ran from April 2005 to October 2005 ended with a result of 62–46 (57.4%–42.6%) in favor of diacritics, which was a majority but was not considered to be a consensus.

Which admits that there's no consensus, so this guideline obviously doesn't justify the page move. --Adolar von Csobánka (Talk) 01:10, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

The Bulgarian article lists Lékó as being born in Szeged, can anyone throw any light on his actual birthtown? It might mean someone rewrites the whole introduction (either of this on or Bulgarian). Evlekis 03:59, 20 November 2006 (UTC) Евлекис

He was born in Szabadka/Subotica, but moved to Szeged at the age of one. [1]

On the title dispute: note that names of people are very rarely stripped of accents in Wikipedia articles, which is imho both more correct and more informative. A link page is usually placed at the accentless version to facilitate search. 84.0.216.71 12:45, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Is the Serbian spelling of his name relevant, being of Hungarian ethnicity and bearing Hungarian citizenship for most of his life? Also note that birth as a Yugoslav citizen doesn't make one be (Yugo)Slav-born culturewise. This term to put his country of birth may suggest that he dropped another nationality for being Hungarian, which is not the case. I suggest a change to born in Yugoslavia. 84.0.216.71 12:45, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Well on that note, obviously there can be no change to "born in Yugoslavia" unless ofcourse he was born elsewhere, though you know this to be in Subotica (Szabadka). Even that is enough to give his name in Serbian as of course, it is where his parents chose to give birth to him, and a country in which he was registered. And even the very fact that his name bears Hungarian orthography is only because ethnic-Hungarians were granted this right during his birthtime, as indeed they are now: compare this with ethnic-Slavs/Macedonians born in Greece, or Kurds born in Turkey, who are prohobited from officially having a name spelled in their ethnic languages according to the laws of their lands. As Wikipedia gives information, there is no harm or major space lost in giving someone elses name in another language. When that language is relevant (ie. language of birthland, language of individual's ethnicity, language of area where individual's contributions are effective) then it becomes a necessity. Burhanuddin Rabbani is an ethnic Tadjik born in Afghanistan, and nobody disputes his name given in Dari (related form of Persian but language of Afghanistan, not his Tadjiki). as such, there must be a form of spelling reflecting Leko's name in the local language. I'm thinking of changing it to Serbo-Croat but that is a non-Hungarian-related issue, more a local technicality. Evlekis 17:40, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Hungarian is the local language in Szabadka. Serbian spelling is irrelevant.

His name is Lékó Péter, or Péter Lékó if you insist on Western name order. It's his official name. Don't use something which is clearly wrong just because it's common.178.164.173.211 (talk) 21:57, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

eidetic memory

I'd like to point out that Leko has been marked (as of wikipedia's article, anyway) as "someone with eidetic memory". That's something pretty rare I guess... which should be somewhat documented SOMEWHERE. However, nowhere in the article it explains why he belongs in that cateory, nor does it mention anywhere anything at all about it.

I don't think it belongs there, long story short (I don't think this can be true). If it does, then someone should try to document it. For the moment, it's misleading, at the very best.

Seigneur101 03:50, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Many top chess players have excellent memory. I've never heard of any evidence that Leko is unique in this regard. e.g. he is not exceptional at blindfold chess - see the 2006 Melody Amber results: http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=3010 . I suggest it's just a case of Leko (like all top chess players) being extremely intelligent and having a very good memory. I think it should be deleted, both from here and from the eidetic memory article. Peter Ballard 04:45, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Oh well, I just added it on the basis of it being in that article. I won't object to it being removes, but is there any source for him having it? Bubba73 (talk), 23:04, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Sounds to me like a Wikipedia rumour - once it gets on Wikipedia, it's propagated around as if it is fact. I think it should be deleted unless documented as true. Even if true, it's not essential to the article anyway (i.e. what's the harm in deleting it?). Peter Ballard 05:36, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

I put it in, but I'm not opposed to deleting it. I requested a citation both in this article and eidetic memory. Bubba73 (talk), 23:23, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

I removed the claim of eidetic memory. While Peter has a very good memory, he sometimes forgets his opening analysis. I even found one reference to this here http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=3818 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bennedik (talk • contribs) 23:42, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Old requested move

The page name has been discussed before on this talk page. I have rarely seen "Péter Lékó" in any English language source except for wikipedia. Peter Leko's own official website http://lekochess.com consistently uses "Leko", and specifically on his biography it says

Name: Peter Leko

Date of birth: 08-09-1979

Country: Hungary

and so on, "Peter Leko" is used exclusively on this page. Using google to search http://lekochess.com for "Lékó" gives only a couple of instances, whereas "Leko", as expected, gives many. The wikipedia page was moved from Peter Leko to Péter Lékó in August 2006. I think that move was a mistake and should be reversed, as as far as I know, the spelling with diacritics is rarely used in English. See WP:ENGLISH: "If you are talking about a person, country, town, film, book, or video game, use the most commonly used English version of the name for the article, as you would find it in other encyclopedias and reference works." Quale 02:53, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree with the move/rename because of WP:ENGLISH. I think there is a more specific policy somewhere. Bubba73 (talk), 03:08, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

From the same page, "If there is no commonly used English name, use an accepted transliteration of the name in the original language." So "é" should be "e" and "ó" should be "o". Bubba73 (talk), 03:11, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

I forgot to mention that if the Hungarian title were desired it should be "Lékó Péter" anyway, since I think that's the name ordering used. Quale 03:13, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree with the move. Some time ago I reversed a change from Evgeny Sveshnikov to his Latvian name for similar reasons. Brittle heaven 11:19, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree too. Baccyak4H (Yak!) 16:22, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

This page has been moved back and forth a few times recently. It appears above that consensus was for Peter Leko, perhaps those who object to that could give their reasons here? Pawnkingthree (talk) 19:06, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Well, "Péter Lékó" doesn't read like "Peter Leko". If he's Hungarian and the name contains diacritics, they should remain there so to assist readers in pronouncing his name correctly. Those who know how to read them, that is. Those who don't know how to read them will mispronounce the name anyway. Furthermore, it's only encyclopedic to have names written in their most accurate forms. Húsönd 19:53, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

That's not what WP:ENGLISH says. English language sources overwhelmingly prefer "Peter Leko". Also, my understanding is his name in Hungarian is "Lékó Péter", and that doesn't make sense for the English-language wikipedia. Also, it isn't just what "websites" say. It's Leko's official website. Dealing with you is tedious since you choose to war to try to get your way rather than working to change the relevant guidelines by consensus. We went through this at Arpad Elo, and now you're starting it again. Quale (talk) 05:28, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

I also think "Peter Leko" is the right name for this article. Anyone wanting to move this article again, should first try to gain consensus on this talk page. Voorlandt (talk) 07:02, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

His name is Lékó Péter, or Péter Lékó if you insist on Western name order. It's his official name. Don't use something which is clearly wrong just because it's common. The diacritics are not used in English sources for practical reasons, but it isn't really a different spelling. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia which shouldn't have a problem writing names correctly.178.164.173.211 (talk) 22:05, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

WikiProject class rating

This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 08:01, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Requested move

The following is a closed discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was No consensus for the move. Parsecboy (talk) 01:26, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

Peter Leko → Péter Lékó — As elsewhere on Wikipedia, we use Latin alphabet diacritics when applicable. The name of this person, Hungarian as it is, has diacritics (and that is easily verifiable). The fact that most English sources do not show the diacritics is due to the very same old stupid reasons: lack of diacritics in English keyboards; unawareness of their existence; carelessness. None of these reasons is encyclopedic and for a long time Wikipedia has ensured that they do not constitute grounds for the elimination of diacritics. This article should follow, as it's one of the few remaining bastions of title inaccuracy. — Húsönd 11:26, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.

• Support As per my comments in the relevant section above. Hobartimus (talk) 11:29, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
• Support, the plain "Peter Leko" is perfectly well served by a redirect, and should lead to the encyclopedically correct name. Placing the article on the "quick and easy" namespace is an unfortunate tendency that dumbs down WP. As far as WP:ENGLISH, this is an individual's legal name, not Cologne. MURGH ^disc. 14:21, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
• Support - per long-standing practice, we use diacritics on Latin-alphabet names here, unless there's some overriding reason not to, which emphatically is not the case for Lékó. - Biruitorul ^Talk 19:43, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
• Oppose, per previous discussion on this issue. Longstanding practice is WP:ENGLISH, which is to prefer the common name in English. This is Peter Leko by an absolutely overwhelming margin. In fact that is the spelling that was used on his own official website. Clearly his official website uses "Peter Leko" because of the "old stupid reasons", the site was "confounded by the lack of diacritics in English keyboards", was "unaware of the their existence", and was careless. The spelling with diacritics is almost never used in English sources. As has been pointed out several times, if the so-called "correct" version of his name were to be used it would be Lékó Péter. Although it is claimed below that name order and diacritics are orthogonal issues, the only reason given to change the article title to a spelling almost never found in English language sources is that it is in some sense more correct. See Talk:Arpad Elo for more of Húsönd's ideas about how articles should be named. (In that case an American physicist who left Hungary at age 6 and lived the last 75 years of his life in the US.) Quale (talk) 07:07, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

Question: per WP:English André Citroën should be moved to Andre Citroen as the diacriticless version definitely has more English hits on Google? Also check out the talk page. Squash Racket (talk) 12:31, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

Yes, surely it must have been at least one of those reasons, as the person's actual name bears diacritics, regardless of whether or not they appear on his own website. Péter cannot sign his name without them, as the vowels with accents are actually separate letters in Hungarian. If he were to sign "Peter Leko", then other Hungarians would regard him as illiterate. However, surely he must be aware that most English speakers don't know what a diacritic is, let alone how to pronounce them. "What difference could it make if my website writes my accurate name?"- might he think -"it's not like Quale and others will realize that my name reads in a complete different way if diacritics were to be taken into account". Húsönd 13:02, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

• Oppose. The English spelling is without the diacritics, and following the English spelling is not an "old stupid reason". Indeed, when Leko writes about himself in English, he uses it without diacritics. Take a look at Peter Leko's official homepage. If Leko himself is comfortable spelling his name "Peter Leko", I see absolutely no reason to deviate from that standard. Sjakkalle (Check!) 08:03, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
• Oppose for the reasons stated by Quale and Sjakkalle. Surely a person's spelling of his own name should be determinative, and should not be "corrected" by Wikipedia. Pal Benko is a similar case. Krakatoa (talk) 09:18, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
  • Comment - Benko (and also Elo, above) emigrated to the US so is not a similar case. Peter Ballard (talk) 10:38, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
    • Reply It is similar in that Benko, Elo, and Leko all were born in Hungary and all use the Americanized, diacritical mark-free versions of their names. If Benko or Elo's kid, born in America, readopted the diacritical marks that his/her father had abandoned, I'd say the Wikipedia article on the kid should follow that usage. Wikipedia shouldn't be telling Leko or Benko/Elo's (hypthetical) offspring what their names really are. Leko and the rest should get to pick their own names. Krakatoa (talk) 18:56, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
      • These people didn't "pick" any names. They were registered with the same names they currently have, with diacritics. Unless you can find proof that they actually changed the names deliberately to remove diacritics, then I think it's rather ludicrous to claim that they "picked" new names without the diacritics. Húsönd 21:06, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
        • Benko has written a number of chess books, several of which I have. Elo wrote at least one chess book, which I have. "Benko's Bafflers" is a column, written by Benko, that has appeared in Chess Life magazine for many years. In none of these sources are the diacritical marks used - compare the Dover book Chess Olympiads 1927-1968 by Árpád Földeák and the Pitman book International Championship Chess: A Complete Record of FIDE Events by B.M. Kažić, which do use the diacritical marks. Krakatoa (talk) 18:14, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
          • Fair enough, but that still doesn't mean that this person has removed the diacritics from his Hungarian name. The fact that he does not care about the presence or absence of diacritics (in English text) does not change his actual name. Húsönd 20:40, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
• Oppose but want a guideline - while I'm personally opposed (I find Leko's personal website especially convincing), I'd rather be pointed to a guideline because presumably this debate has been had at hundreds of different articles. Peter Ballard (talk) 10:38, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
• Support — per all of the similar Hungarian names on Wikipedia. He hasn't moved to the US I guess, so I don't really understand why his name would be Anglicized. BTW this discussion doesn't really belong here. If someone questions the use of diacritics, it has many consequences, so the discussion needs to take place on a more general forum than this. Squash Racket (talk) 11:59, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
• Oppose for the reasons given above and also because FIDE don't use diacritics on their site. Using diacritics is only one small step away from our Latvian biogs being titled, for example, 'Jevgēņijs Svešņikovs' (Evgeny Sveshnikov), as occurred a while ago and was thankfully reverted. I blame Robert Hübner (Huebner) for starting this whole dilemma years ago! Brittle heaven (talk) 13:57, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
  • Completely baseless. For starters, when it comes to complicated names, "Jevgēņijs Svešņikovs" doesn't look any more difficult to read than "Evgeny Sveshnikov". It's foreign, period. Then, if the person's actual name is "Jevgēņijs Svešņikovs", so be it - certainly not the most complicated name in the world, and besides we're an encyclopedia so our job is to provide accuracy, not to dumb it down just because some might find it complicated to read, or just prefer to remain ignorant to the function of diacritics. Robert who? Dilemma? Do you really believe that one person in the past is to be blamed for the current tradition of using diacritics on Wikipedia? Wake up- diacritics do not exist for decorative purposes; they provide ultimate accuracy and proper reading of foreign words. Basically, if you can't read them it's your problem, not Robert Hübner's or anyone else's who strive for perfection. Húsönd 14:49, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
  • Calm down—the Hubner thing was a joke. Of course it's regrettable if my opinion doesn't conform to your view, but this is a survey, not an arm-twisting contest. Brittle heaven (talk) 15:29, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
    • Sorry, my words were not meant to sound hostile. Húsönd 18:47, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
• Oppose English usage and the subject himself (when expressing himself in English) avoid the diacritics. Wikipedia should follow the facts on the ground rather than dictate "correctness". We are descriptive, not prescriptive. Leave the title without diacritics (although their existence should of course be noted in the text for the education of our readers).Erudy (talk) 16:53, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Discussion

Any additional comments:

[Note: moved this discussion from the above "old requested move" to here. See above for old discussion.] 199.125.109.102 (talk) 17:51, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Sigh. It's just been renamed again, without discussion. This goes against consensus (here), goes against most common English usage, and (the clincher for me), goes against Leko's personal website http://www,lekochess.com . I intend to get it renamed back. Peter Ballard (talk) 06:42, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Missed this section when I looked at the page, the last edit was pretty old in this discussion though. However as far as I know it is standard Wikipedia practice to use the full and correct names in all cases. English language sources often not capable of correctly writing the name due to lack of ability to display ó, é etc . However wiki is fully compatible so we can be accurate, note that the article already uses Lékó so further there is no reason to have the incorrect Leko in the title. Hobartimus (talk) 06:52, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

OK, I realise you didn't see this - sorry for being a bit rude. But I still think we should use the Western spelling for reasons given here my me and others. Not that it's a big deal. Let's see what others say. Peter Ballard (talk) 07:06, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

A very similar case was discussed in June 2008 after the last post here. Wikipedia policies were debated at length http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requested_moves/Tennis and the end result as determined by admin was that the articles used diatrics (eg. Ágnes Szávay). I'm unaware of a newer discussion but a link would be good if there was one. Even Judit Polgár a completely analogous article to this has the á in it. Hobartimus (talk) 07:05, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Like I said I don't think it's a big deal, but the discussion at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requested_moves/Tennis doesn't really convince me: no consensus and no change in the guidelines due to it. Peter Ballard (talk) 07:28, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

I have moved this article back to its original name. If there is no consensus, it should not be changed. And from the majority of the comments above it appears that Peter Leko is the preferred name anyway. Voorlandt (talk) 10:48, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

If we are going to "do it right", shouldn't it be in the order he uses, i.e. "Lékó Péter"? Peter Ballard (talk) 04:35, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

No. Look at all the tens of thousands of similar articles, just to bring chess players, Judit Polgár Daniël Stellwagen Radosław Wojtaszek Robert Kempiński all of them, while using the correct diatrics, use the given name first, (Judit, Robert, Daniël, in our case Péter) and the family name is second, Stellwagen, Polgár, Kempinski in our case Lékó. This is simply western name order has nothing to do with the use of diatrics.Hobartimus (talk) 06:38, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

But why do all those articles use the Western name order? Because that's the order which is used in English! If we're going to take the "don't dumb down Wikipedia" and "Use their correct legal names" arguments, then it should be "Lékó Péter". If we take the common English usage, it should be "Peter Leko". "Péter Lékó" seems to me to be a compromise which does neither. Peter Ballard (talk) 07:46, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

I followed the tennis naming issues for a while and one of the reasons for this compromise is the ability to differentiate between Hungarians living in Hungary/leaving as adults and Hungarians who left the country as a child/were born in the US.

The Anglicized name without diacritics is correct for someone who has lived in/identified with the USA for most of his life, but awkward for example for those who live/lived in Hungary. The Eastern name order would bring even more confusion for an average reader besides this problem. Squash Racket (talk) 12:16, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

full name

The info box gives his full name as "Peter Leko", but FIDE gives a middle initial of M, so that is not his full name. Bubba73 (talk), 07:40, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Peter Leko images

It's pretty obvious that I'm doing a big overhaul of this page, but I'm in need of images to bring into the article. In particular I'd like one of Leko at around the time he was a WC challenger. There are images online, for example one where he is against Topalov during the 2002 Candidates final, but frankly the regulations on images confound me and I'm not really sure how to proceed. For Peter Leko I'm relying on the 21 images on WikiCommons but its not really enough to do the job properly. Any help greatly appreciated Jkmaskell 17:40, 30 August 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jkmaskell (talk • contribs)

B-Class Quality?

While the rules on assessing articles don't prohibit me from upgrading the quality class to B, I don't think it would be right, having invested so much in the article. I think it meets the six B-Class criteria and meets the standards of other B-class articles on this WikiProject. There's no need for a formal review as I'm not recommending GA but I'd be grateful if someone would please give the article a once over. Suggestions for improvement would be welcome. Jkmaskell (talk) 15:23, 15 August 2015 (UTC)

It could use a copyedit (e.g. "For more information, see FIDE World Chess Championship 2005" should be integrated into the text), more wikilinks, and especially more inline citations (I've proofread the lead and first paragraph as an example) but it's almost there. In particular while copyediting I'd pay attention to things that might be easily grasped by any chess player but might not be so clear to the layperson. For example, I think the first instance of tournament scores should be written out in full within the parentheses, i.e. "(scoring six points out of nine)", so that a reader can infer that the subsequent fractions in parentheses are also referring to tournament scores.

I'm sure there's a lot more biographical material available in print sources (From London to Elista comes readily to mind); the article needs to be further expanded with them before heading to GAN. Cobblet (talk) 05:24, 16 August 2015 (UTC)