Talk:Golden age of Jewish culture in Spain

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Requested move[edit]

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: No consensus to move Mike Cline (talk) 21:14, 26 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Golden age of Jewish culture in Spain → Golden age of Jewish culture in Al-Andalus – Relisted. Vegaswikian (talk) 19:41, 19 December 2011 (UTC) per main article title (Al-Andalus). This article does not deal with Spain but with the Muslim rule in the Iberian peninsula unambiguously known as Al-Andalus, which included parts of Portugal. We already have an article that deal with Spain proper History of the Jews in Spain. Tachfin (talk) 10:10, 12 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Support. It makes sense. Jɑυмe (xarrades) 15:21, 12 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Reject Deja Vu , didn't this debate go on already? WP:NAME requires that the most common name, Spain is per google the most popular way of referring to what is in this article. [Popular books all use Spain]--Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ (talk) 19:45, 12 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- First there is no common name; books mentioning this are speaking of Spain which isn't the scope of our article here. Not to mention that Spain didn't exist back then and doesn't even apply as a geographic references since we also have a country called Portugal. The move I propose is totally inline with WP:Precision.
- P.S: Re the book you linked, I don't think anybody considers the Caliphate of Córdoba as the golden age of Spain. That's just like saying the Byzantine Empire was the golden age of Turkey --Tachfin (talk) 20:13, 12 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I hear that argument but the issue of Spain not existing doesn't hold up. "Africa" and also "America" didnt exist for much of its history, (they went by other names) doesnt mean we dont identify with the popular name. My primary issue is popularity, how many people know Iberian. --Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ (talk) 02:20, 13 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Africa and America are geographic locations. Proposal isn't Iberia. --Tachfin (talk) 07:39, 13 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Support — "Spain" didn't exist at the time. It follows WP:Name: Iberian Jewish literature: between al-Andalus and Christian Europe[1][2][3][4][5].— 85.56.157.12 (talk) 20:41, 12 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- If "Spain" didn't exist, how did people know to call it "Spain" when it came into existence? – I suspect that the name Spain was used for Iberia until a state consisting of Iberia-minus-Portugal was formed, but have no evidence on the point. —Tamfang (talk) 18:55, 24 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per Halqh. Seems a bit like gaming the system when a similar was just rejected. Plot Spoiler (talk) 03:51, 13 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Please assume good faith, this isn't the same proposal as the last request. --Tachfin (talk) 07:39, 13 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose I might well have supported the last request, but this is mere obscurity. The purpose of having titles at all is to tell readers what the subject is; this will not. As far as I can see, this doesn't mention the west of the Peninsula at all, so the argument that Portugal is being slighted in tenuous. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 04:13, 13 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Yep that's the purpose of titles; I came to this article expecting to see stuff about Jews in Spain, but that's located in another article (History of the Jews in Spain). --Tachfin (talk) 07:39, 13 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  - Let me see: this article discusses Saragossa, Cordoba, Seville, and Toledo - and it's not about Ohio. But then, as a classicist, I have no objection to reading about Iberian, Roman, or Visigothic Spain. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:14, 13 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Support BlueBirdo (talk) 05:09, 13 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Support -- It may be common to treat Spain and Iberia as the same, but it is wrong. This article is about the Jews in Al-Andalus, a former country, whose extent contracted as Castile and Portugal proceeded with the reconquest of Muslim Iberia. Peterkingiron (talk) 15:36, 20 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. The term "Spain" makes the most sense here. Srnec (talk) 23:11, 23 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Visigoths[edit]

In the first sentence of 'The Birth of the Golden Age' section, it claims that "the Christian Visigoths of Hispania persecuted the Jews severely." This isn't true; the rule of the Visigoths was tolerant. They were Arians (unitarians) and were persecuted by the church for heresy (the Mediaeval Inquisition and Roman Inquisition). When the Arians were wiped out, the Visigoths who had adopted Catholicism were no longer the rulers. Where did this come from? Pydgical (talk) 16:07, 5 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Well there seems to be quite a bit of literature on Visigothic persecutions [6]. Arians were not unitarians, but in any case the Visigoths had become Catholic by the time of the Muslim invasions. I've no idea whether they were more or less tolerant when the were Arian, but it's not really relevant to the point being made. Paul B (talk) 20:17, 5 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Just want to nitpick that Arians are unitarians Stryker Genesis (talk) 21:27, 27 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

formatting[edit]

The formatting on this page is messy and overlapping and needs fixing ASAP. --74.89.110.34 (talk) 04:58, 19 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The nature of the Golden Age[edit]

"Having invaded the areas throughout Southern and Northern Spain, and coming to rule in a matter of seven years, Islamic rulers were confronted with many questions relating to the implementation of Islamic Rule on a non-Islamic society."

That sentence does not make any sense at all. All conquests since 622 involved subjugating non-Islamic societies to the Islamic Rule. Did they suddenly wake up in 711 questioning what they've been doing for the past 89 years? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ant9n (talk • contribs) 19:44, 6 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 23 May 2018[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: no consensus to moe the page to the proposed title at this time, per the discussion below. Dekimasuよ! 20:02, 30 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Golden age of Jewish culture in Spain → Golden age of Jewish culture in Iberia – This article needs to be moved due to the fact that, as has been discussed numerous times over the past years, the word "Spain" in the title is inaccurate. Spain is a state that did not exist at the time with which the article is concerned, and it does not cover important Jewish cultural activity in what are now Portugal and Gibraltar. In addition, Spain is not simply English for Hispania, which was a Roman description and has nothing to do with the period with which the article is concerned.

At the top of this article there are links to main pages that make the distinction between Jewish history in Spain and Portugal.

"Al-Andalus" would be preferable to "Spain," but areas that were not under direct Muslim control for the entirety of the time, such as Aragon and Catalonia, are within the scope of this article.

Therefore, the best solution is "Iberia," which is a strictly geographical description. Sambasoccer27 (talk) 10:17, 23 May 2018 (UTC) Sambasoccer27 (talk) 10:17, 23 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Support Rreagan007 (talk) 04:33, 25 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. Golden Age of Jewish culture in Spain is the common usage, and we should go by that rather than what we think the title should be. In Google Scholar there are 52 hits for "Golden age of Jewish culture in Spain" and none for "Golden age of Jewish culture in Iberia". In addition, the article does seem to be wholly about Jews in Spain, not Portugal, where the golden age lasted much longer. Abraham Zacuto, for example, is not mentioned, but he is in History of the Jews in Portugal. Dudley Miles (talk) 10:07, 25 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 9 November 2018[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved (page mover nac) Flooded with them hundreds 11:05, 16 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Golden age of Jewish culture in Spain → Golden age of Jews in Spain – Prior RMs here took an issue with the 'Spain' part, but the consensus was to leave it be (fine by me). I want to raise another issue: per WP:PRECISION we don't need to use the longer phrase 'Jewish culture'. This was the Golden Age of Jews in Spain. Simpler and shorter. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 06:47, 9 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. The current title is standard in off Wikipedia sources. "Golden age of Jewish culture in Spain" has 11,700 hits on Google, "Golden age of Jews in Spain" only 43 hits. The proposed name also does not sound right to me. Dudley Miles (talk) 11:28, 9 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support change to "Jewish Golden Age in Spain" עם ישראל חי (talk) 14:56, 9 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Strong oppose per Dudley Miles. Besides which not sure this really was a golden age for the individuals, sounds more like an economic/social judgment. In ictu oculi (talk) 08:29, 10 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose because it's not the most common name WP:COMMONNAME. --SharabSalam (talk) 20:05, 10 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Spain or Iberia[edit]

An editor changed "Spain" in the lead to "the Iberian Peninsula". I reverted as the text should not contradict the article title. Another editor reverted back on the ground that "The nation-state of Spain is anachronistic in this article. "Spain" is just used in the title of the article according to WP:UCRN". WP:UCRN says "Wikipedia does not necessarily use the subject's "official" name as an article title; it generally prefers the name that is most commonly used (as determined by its prevalence in a significant majority of independent, reliable English-language sources)" It does not say that the name in the lead and the title can be different, which is confusing for readers. This question has been raised several times in the past (see above) and the decision has always been to keep the current title. A key point is that Iberian Peninsula is just as inaccurate as Spain as the Jewish culture in the Moslem states never extended to northern Iberia. The text must agree with the article title and there is no consensus to change the title. Dudley Miles (talk) 23:46, 28 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]