Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Elements

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"the"

@Grendon84 has been systematically changing the first part of elements like:

Selenium is a chemical element; it has the symbol Se and atomic number 34.

to remove "the":

Selenium is a chemical element; it has symbol Se and atomic number 34.

The edits are marked minor and have no edit summary.

If there is an agreed form this it should be cited in the change. If not these changes should not be made, they are just annoying and to me they read like a word is missing. Johnjbarton (talk) 16:57, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

To my understanding, the form without "the" was initially approved, though I prefer using "the" as it reads as a bit more natural. 108.160.120.147 (talk) 13:13, 11 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Paper accepted for publication that updates various nuclei

While cleaning Isotopes of silver (updated to NUBASE2020 in 2022), I uncovered a paper, which has been accepted to Physical Review C and is available as an arXiv preprint, that updates the masses of various nuclei.

Jaries, A.; Stryjczyk, M.; Kankainen, A.; Ayoubi, L. Al; Beliuskina, O.; Canete, L.; de Groote, R. P.; Delafosse, C.; Delahaye, P.; Eronen, T.; Flayol, M.; Ge, Z.; Geldhof, S.; Gins, W.; Hukkanen, M.; Imgram, P.; Kahl, D.; Kostensalo, J.; Kujanpää, S.; Kumar, D.; Moore, I. D.; Mougeot, M.; Nesterenko, D. A.; Nikas, S.; Patel, D.; Penttilä, H.; Pitman-Weymouth, D.; Pohjalainen, I.; Raggio, A.; Ramalho, M.; Reponen, M.; Rinta-Antila, S.; de Roubin, A.; Ruotsalainen, J.; Srivastava, P. C.; Suhonen, J.; Vilen, M.; Virtanen, V.; Zadvornaya, A. "Physical Review C - Accepted Paper: Isomeric states of fission fragments explored via Penning trap mass spectrometry at IGISOL". journals.aps.org. arXiv:2403.04710.

This updates the following nuclei and their isomers: ⁸⁴Br, ¹⁰⁵Mo, ¹¹⁵Pd, ¹¹⁹Pd, ¹²¹Pd, ¹²²Ag, ¹²⁷In, ¹²⁹In, and ¹³²Sb. In particular, I have updated ¹²²Ag in the table — for this nucleus, the 3− state in NUBASE2020 is declared nonexistent. –LaundryPizza03 (d c̄) 07:05, 2 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Appearances of elements we have no data for?

Of the known elements, we know for certain what ninety-seven look like at STP (the first ninety-nine less astatine and francium).

It's predicted that astatine is silvery metallic, and I assume francium would be the same. But I'm not sure if relativistic effects kick in - caesium is a bit golden - why shouldn't francium be, or is francium likely silvery as well? I'm not sure. Wikipedia does not make any assumptions to what francium's color might be in its article. Silvery like most? Or golden like caesium?

I presume fermium onwards are all likely silvery, I note Wikipedia says roentgenium is likely silvery, so I assume that all past fermium are at least to tennessine, maybe oganesson? I'm not sure what oganesson would probably look like if it's not a gas, as Wikipedia says it's probably a solid.

Is there any data on what these elusive radioactive elements might look like if we were to theoretically get a macroscopic sample of them and have the result not be instant destruction and death? 108.160.120.147 (talk) 18:12, 2 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Einsteinium is a decent measuring stick. There are a lot of folks who postulate that the post-astatine elements will be silvery gray or metallic white but the sources do not look great. Recon rabbit 19:49, 2 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Francium is probably somewhere between Rb and Cs in colour (I answered why here). But so far no RS; that's just applying the physics behind alkali metal colours on my end. In most cases the electronic structure is less simple (and also the predicted structure is sometimes not cubic, leading to anisotropic optical properties) and it will be a good deal harder to work it out. I suspect that not too much thought went into most of the "silvery" predictions and it's just that this is how most metals look. Though it's not even clear if Cn, Fl, and Og are metals or not. Double sharp (talk) 01:14, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Unknown

I'm i the process of removing undiscovered decay modes from isotope lists I've edited, unless there is an experimental bound. But I'm not sure how to denote decay modes with unknown branching ratio, such as the β⁺ and β⁺p modes of ¹²⁴Pr:

β⁺
β⁺?
β⁺ (?%)
β⁺ (unknown%)
Add a new column with the branching ratio.

–LaundryPizza03 (d c̄) 11:58, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

β⁺ (?%) is succinct & unambiguous. YBG (talk) 09:31, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

+1 Double sharp (talk) 09:59, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with YBG and Double sharp. Any potential confusion (e.g., unobserved decay modes vs. observed decay modes with unknown branching radio) can be resolved with explanatory footnotes. ^Complex/_Rational 11:53, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What is a "main oxidation state"?

Like main isotopes, main oxidation state is also something that varies in different Wikipedia articles. Some oxidation states like Tl(+3) and Co(+3) are either bolded or not in different languages of Wikipedia. There might be a need for a criteria of main oxidation states. Nucleus hydro elemon (talk) 10:10, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think it may have started with "does Greenwood and Earnshaw consider it a 'more common oxidation state' in their table on p.28". Double sharp (talk) 13:10, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That table is a good starting point. However, there are no oxidation states listed for He, Ne, Ar, Rn, and Db and beyond, so other sources are needed for them. No is also a problem, as the article says No(+2) is more stable than No(+3), but it is reversed in Greenwood and Earnshaw. Nucleus hydro elemon (talk) 14:07, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We need to resolve this issue of defining "main". I'm fine with "what Greenwood and Earnshaw call common" as long as we can stick with it. The other definition I've seen is "stable", as in an oxidation state that would be stable as ion (aqueous? IDK). There also the historical concept of states corresponding to naturally occurring oxides which I think is nicely educational. However these other directions require sources/discussions.

So let me make a concrete proposal: the "main" oxidation states are those listed Greenwood and Earnshaw as "more common". One upshot is the these oxidation states would all be source to one place.

This will fail for some transuranium elements I guess, see

Fricke, B. (2007). Superheavy elements a prediction of their chemical and physical properties. In Recent impact of physics on inorganic chemistry (pp. 89-144). Berlin, Heidelberg: Springer Berlin Heidelberg.

which talks about predicted "stable" oxidation states. Johnjbarton (talk) 00:29, 6 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I like the idea of standardizing and G&E seems a good choice. If we go with G&E data, I suggest we also follow G&E nomenclature, specifically, ie, say "more common" instead of "main". And maybe that nomenclature might be a justification for not bolding the trans uranium ones. YBG (talk) 02:54, 6 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Does anyone have a CRC? If it has similar data, then I would lean to use it out of ubiquity. Johnjbarton (talk) 03:04, 6 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

By the way, there is a dispute about necessariness of listing every oxidation state. I think it deserves to be discussed here. Nucleus hydro elemon (talk) 14:10, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. That was my post, and my point was especially pointed at infobars.

In my opinion as a chemist and editor, the thing you describe as "main oxidation state" is a chemically significant characteristic of the element. This information is invaluable in rapid qualitative thinking about likely chemical compounds. When attached to an element, "main oxidation state" means "the element's predominate or common oxidation state".

Exotic oxidation states are quite a different matter. They only apply to, well, exotic compounds and thus have little predictive power. That is why they appear in the "news": when a chemist succeeds in creating an exotic compound that defies prediction they may claim the element is in a new "oxidation state". This state is not a characteristic of the element.

In terms of the element articles I think the exotic oxidation state content would be much more fun and effective if it were moved in sections entitled something like "Exotic compounds". There we would discuss things like XeF₆ which were unexpected, difficult to create, and have unusual properties. Infobars are poor location for this info because they don't allow discussion of interesting aspects of these exotica. The effect of having both "main" and "exotic" oxidation states is to dilute the value of both bits of information. Johnjbarton (talk) 15:37, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think it's fine to put Xe as having 2, 4, 6, and 8, because a line that would bar XeF₆ and friends would bar us from putting down anything at all for that element. I do think some cutting makes sense, but what exactly would it entail? Ir(VI) has basically one exemplar (hexafluoride + maybe some derivatives), but it doesn't need exotic conditions the way VII and higher do. What about negatives in carbonyls, which have little to do with the actual charge on the central atom? And how would you source the particular line drawn in the sand? Double sharp (talk) 02:24, 4 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, this is my point. Noble gases got that name for a reason! That is why no compound of noble gases was created until 1962. The history of chemistry stretches back a thousand years and chemical synthesis has been going full bore for hundreds of years. As a natural element, the only oxidation state that matters for Xe is zero.

I agree that my proposal requires a source and it may be that the line might be unclear. Oxidation state is not an atomic property. Strictly for "Elements" all oxidation states are zero.

But it seems like this problem already exists. The Elements pages have three kinds of information under oxidation state. Two kinds of numbers, bold and normal, and some text (which links base and acid weirdly) and occasionally a ref. Somehow readers are supposed to decode this? That is what lead me to complain in the first place.

For example Rubidium has −1, +1 (a strongly basic oxide) and Iron has −4, −2, −1, 0, +1, +2, +3, +4, +5, +6, +7 (an amphoteric oxide).

What is the meaning of Rubidium's oxidation state being a strongly basic oxide? Why was +1 bold?

(maybe if you agree that there is a problem we need to think of smaller steps of improvement). Johnjbarton (talk) 02:59, 4 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The bold means that Rb +1 is a major state, and the lack of bold means that Rb −1 isn't. The "strongly basic oxide" refers to Rb(I) oxide i.e. Rb₂O being strongly basic. I do agree this is less clear for Fe, where I would say FeO is better called basic than amphoteric, and it's not clear which oxidation state the text is describing. Maybe the parenthesis should be put next to the oxidation state it's relevant to.

Probably it would be good to state explicitly that bold oxidation states mean the main ones. Though understandings may differ: I would call Mn(VII) an important oxidation state, but it's too oxidising to find in minerals. This is likely similar to why we seem to disagree for Xe(VI): to me, talking about Xe chemistry in any way already presupposes that we are narrowing the scope to what happens when you force it into compounds, because saying "it doesn't do anything" (as writing only 0 as a main oxidation state would imply) seems a bit too boring to be the plausible meaning in context. Double sharp (talk) 03:42, 4 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps splitting the acidic/basic properties to another row? After that, every oxide in main oxidation state can be clarified like this:

Cr₂O₃: an amphoteric oxide
CrO₃: an acidic oxide

Nucleus hydro elemon (talk) 10:28, 4 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Splitting into another row would be good, but I don't understand the context/purpose of these phrases. Why would we list these two oxides in the infobar for Cr? Johnjbarton (talk) 18:25, 4 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I wonder if these "comments" (such as "an acidic oxide") as they are called in the template source were intended originally to be attached to particular oxidation states, like Nucleus hydro elemon did in the box above. In the current version these comments are always at the end. Johnjbarton (talk) 18:46, 4 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Double sharp: I want to be clear that my main point is about the infobar. The issues you raise can all be dealt with in the text. The infobar however has nothing to show readers that "bold means Rb +1 is a major state" or that '"strongly basic oxide" refers to Rb(I) oxide'. All we see in the info bar is a series of numbers and a cryptic phrase seemingly singling out some factoid about something that also has "oxi" in the word, but why?

Also note that the infobar link next to the coded message is to Oxidation state which does not explain bold, "Rb", "strongly basic oxide", or "Rb(I) oxide". Sure the editors who wrote the coded message understand it, but is that our purpose? (For a start maybe we should link the infobar line to Rubidium#Oxidation state and have it link Oxidation state). Johnjbarton (talk) 15:58, 4 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Well, it seemed fairly obvious to me what it meant in 2008, before I'd started editing. (This convention was already around then, but due to changes in how the templates now work, you'll have to view the source to see it.) Sample size n=1, I know, but the idea that bold represents something more important than normal is fairly widespread.

I suppose we could add a note saying "main = bold", remove the characterisations of oxides (a little too much for the infobox perhaps when there are several), and then everything else can stay as it is while already being transparent. Double sharp (talk) 16:41, 4 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A specific proposal:

Change the infobox template to

place the "main" oxidation states on the first line, still bold, prefixed with "Main:"
place the others on the second line, no annotation.
drop the comments (eg "an acidic oxide") or repurpose them (eg for Xe the 'others' could have a comment "rare").
review the outliers, eg carbon, the transuranium elements with no experimental data?

I can try to do this in a sandbox for further feedback.

This addresses my main complain about the cryptic information and mixing of highly predictive main oxidation states with the newsy other ones, but is a relatively small change. WDYT? Johnjbarton (talk) 18:57, 4 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Looks fine for me. The last thing is sourcing to prove the exotic oxidation states do exist. Nucleus hydro elemon (talk) 01:44, 5 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It also looks fine for me. Double sharp (talk) 04:11, 5 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Great, thanks for the feedback. I will have some technical strategy question eventually, but first some more questions about style/editing.

We evidently have two templates that embed oxidation state data and references.

The infobox one Template:Infobox element/symbol-to-oxidation-state. Refs follow state numbers.
The List on Template:List_of_oxidation_states_of_the_elements. Refs together at the end.

The way the refs are related to the state numbers could be different on purpose (according to the lay out desired) or accidental. In the latter case, one or the other could be preferred, or may either layout would be find for both cases.

I think we could build both resources from one data set by separating the data table aspect from the formatting aspect. One template would be data table and others would call it. Before I evaluate the difficulty of this goal, I'd like to hear opinions about the ref layout question. Johnjbarton (talk) 18:31, 5 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I fully support having a single WP data source. YBG (talk) 02:56, 6 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I just realized some problems: The list of oxidation states explicitly state that 0 oxidation state in free element form is excluded, which make noble gases problematic. Moreover, Greenwood&Earnshaw does not list 0 oxidation state in their table, so some potential main oxidation states like Pd(0) are missed. Nucleus hydro elemon (talk) 06:50, 6 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

(Just to clarify the list says "The column for oxidation state 0 only shows elements known to exist in oxidation state 0 in compounds.")

I think a documented 0 oxidation state in a compound would be an exotic state, not a "main" or "common" one. That is, even if the value is 0, the "state of ending up in 0" is notable if sources back that up. So I will claim this is another advantage of separating the common and exotic states.

For common state we can either list 0 with every element or exclude it. For noble gases we could have "(none)". I kinda like that idea. Johnjbarton (talk) 14:49, 6 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I now kind of wonder why Pd(0) is bolded in oxidation state. Isn't this mostly about phosphine complexes and relatives? If so, then we start getting into the question about whether carbonyls and other such compounds are familiar enough to justify things like Cr(0) and Fe(0).

If 0 is to be listed for every element as a common state, then it must be referring to the simple substance, and then 0 must be common for noble gases. If it is not listed, then we are confining ourselves to only compounds, and then it makes some sense to put (none) for noble gases. The former solution accords with Greenwood & Earnshaw (list 0 as common for everybody), but on the other hand, it feels like something is being swept under the rug when 0 would absolutely not be common if it weren't for the pure element (fluorine comes to mind as an extreme case). Double sharp (talk) 15:15, 6 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I only used the word "exotic" as the opposite of "main" or "common". I don't think we should use that word for exactly the reason you point out. Exotic implies a rather more extreme distinction than merely less common. Nevertheless 0 state for Cr and Fe is not "common" and would not appear in their "common" list. Johnjbarton (talk) 15:25, 6 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What do we mean by "exotic", though? Fe(CO)₅ is produced industrially as an intermediate in making pure iron by a carbonyl process, although that's not a common way to do it. Does that count? What about the common usage of carbonyls as examples to teach the 18-electron rule; does that make them sufficiently non-exotic? It seems we need some kind of delimitation from RS. At the very least, I think that if you're not going to consider Ni(0) and Pt(0) common, then one should not consider Pd(0) common either, so probably something should be done about the table in Oxidation state (which I notice doesn't cite anything for bolding Pd(0)). Double sharp (talk) 15:31, 6 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I go with exclude all free element's 0. There should be no double standards towards noble gases, we can't include noble gases's 0 oxidation state in the infobox, but excluding others. Nucleus hydro elemon (talk) 15:28, 6 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. Double sharp (talk) 15:31, 6 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Coming in late to the party (via Talk:Lithium, I support dropping the commentary (parenthetical highlighting the nature of certain oxides) in the "oxidation state" field, since that is not intrinsic to the oxidation state but instead to certain compounds of them. I support keeping the common and rare, with some sort of distinction between them, since that is a good overview of lots of chemistry. I oppose including 0 solely for standard state, since that does not provide any useful information or identifying characteristic of each specific element (the purpose of an infobox). The full Template: list has refs for all (or at least all the non-major ones). It shouldn't be hard to re-engineer that template to take an optional parameter (if specified, just return the IB segment for that element; else return the whole formatted table). That would mean no duplication of content, and easy transclusion of the set of refs for the exotics in the infobox. DMacks (talk) 15:32, 6 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"It shouldn't be hard to re-engineer that template..." great so I will be calling on you when the going gets tough ;-) Johnjbarton (talk) 16:02, 6 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Anyway, here's the whole G&E list (where I removed 0 since they seem to be assuming it for every element as the simple substance). Does anyone have any particular objections to it?

Z	Sym	Main oxidation states
1	H	−1, 1
2	He	(none)
3	Li	1
4	Be	2
5	B	3
6	C	−4, 4
7	N	−3, 3, 5
8	O	−2
9	F	−1
10	Ne	(none)
11	Na	1
12	Mg	2
13	Al	3
14	Si	−4, 4
15	P	−3, 3, 5
16	S	−2, 2, 4, 6
17	Cl	−1, 1, 3, 5, 7
18	Ar	(none)
19	K	1
20	Ca	2
21	Sc	3
22	Ti	4
23	V	5
24	Cr	3, 6
25	Mn	2, 4, 7
26	Fe	2, 3
27	Co	2, 3
28	Ni	2
29	Cu	2
30	Zn	2
31	Ga	3
32	Ge	−4, 2, 4
33	As	−3, 3, 5
34	Se	−2, 2, 4, 6
35	Br	−1, 1, 3, 5
36	Kr	2
37	Rb	1
38	Sr	2
39	Y	3
40	Zr	4
41	Nb	5
42	Mo	4, 6
43	Tc	4, 7
44	Ru	3, 4
45	Rh	3
46	Pd	2, 4
47	Ag	1
48	Cd	2
49	In	3
50	Sn	−4, 2, 4
51	Sb	−3, 3, 5
52	Te	−2, 2, 4, 6
53	I	−1, 1, 3, 5, 7
54	Xe	2, 4, 6
55	Cs	1
56	Ba	2
57	La	3
58	Ce	3, 4
59	Pr	3
60	Nd	3
61	Pm	3
62	Sm	3
63	Eu	2, 3
64	Gd	3
65	Tb	3
66	Dy	3
67	Ho	3
68	Er	3
69	Tm	3
70	Yb	3
71	Lu	3
72	Hf	4
73	Ta	5
74	W	4, 6
75	Re	4
76	Os	4
77	Ir	3, 4
78	Pt	2, 4
79	Au	3
80	Hg	1, 2
81	Tl	1, 3
82	Pb	2, 4
83	Bi	3
84	Po	−2, 2, 4
85	At	−1, 1
86	Rn	(none)
87	Fr	1
88	Ra	2
89	Ac	3
90	Th	4
91	Pa	5
92	U	6
93	Np	5
94	Pu	4
95	Am	3
96	Cm	3
97	Bk	3
98	Cf	3
99	Es	3
100	Fm	3
101	Md	3
102	No	3
103	Lr	3
104	Rf	4

A few objections I can think of:

There are a ton of obvious organic cases where carbon takes on an oxidation state not listed by G&E as "main", e.g. ethane immediately gives −3 and it's hardly exotic. On the other hand, I suppose that the oxidation state is not really the most useful concept when we start talking about those cases. A similar problem appears with cluster chemistry (important for boron and a bunch of early d-block metals), and perhaps things like carbonyl complexes.
There's a few borderline cases where G&E may be too harsh in its exclusions, like V(IV), Re(VII), or U(IV). And also a few cases where G&E might be too lenient, like Sn(−IV). This is not an argument in the absence of RS, but at least suggests that we should try looking for more sources than G&E, to get a more representative picture of the literature.
There's a few cases in the extreme radioactives when later research suggests G&E's choice is not correct: At (where current work shows +3 more stable than +1 in aqueous solution), Md and No (where +2 is at least as important as Eu). There's also the point that chemistry now exists past Rf. But how can we really know what "main" is for these elements that can only be produced one atom at a time – and, in the case of Lr onward, when only one oxidation state is known? Is that a different situation for Lr and Rf, where periodicity implies that that's exactly what you would expect to see, and for the others, where especially for Bh and Hs comparisons with Re and Os indicate that we don't have the full picture? And how is any of that comparable with elements for which solutions can be examined at more typical concentrations and bulk crystals are a thing that you can produce? On the other hand, G&E are treating them on a par with the normal ones, perhaps as a simplification. Should we just do it anyway because the source does?
Kr(II), Xe(II), Xe(IV), and Xe(VI) do not seem to fit a reasonable definition of "main". My intuition would object that any definition where Kr(II) is main should presumably include Fe(VI). And it also doesn't make a lot of sense to allow Xe(VI) in but not Rn(II), when periodicity implies (and experiments somewhat confirm) that Rn is more reactive than Xe. Perhaps we should go with Johnjbarton's idea and depart from G&E for the noble gases in favour of common sense.

Double sharp (talk) 16:13, 6 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I object if it doesn't include the newer cases various editors add to the Template: as they are found in recent literature. DMacks (talk) 21:56, 6 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@DMacks just in case you missed it, I'm pretty sure Double sharp is referring only to the "common" oxidation state. We are proposing a two layer presentation where 1) the common values are sourced to G&E or similar to represent "stable", "historic", or well "common" oxidation state and 2) the rest ("less common", "recent" "newsy") are sourced to recent literature. Johnjbarton (talk) 22:07, 6 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the clarification...was definitely not how I read DS's comment. I can definitely support using G&E or similar for some sort of main/common OS list. DMacks (talk) 23:01, 6 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia:AutoWikiBrowser/Tasks#Long_list_of_isotope_redirects

This is a discussion to create a large number of anchored redirects to the lists of isotopes. –LaundryPizza03 (d c̄) 00:58, 5 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Can you explain what is going on in that discussion? What is the effect of these edits? (As far as I can tell this change is already underway). Johnjbarton (talk) 01:42, 5 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We're trying to decide what kind of anchor to use for the isomers. I also want to create redirects from symbols, such as Pu-241, where they don't conflict wth other topics, but for the A-first orderings I'm unsure how to handle the ambiguity of "122In". –LaundryPizza03 (d c̄) 01:58, 5 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

FA	A	GA	B	C	Start	Stub	FL	List	Category	Disambig	Draft	File	Portal	Project	Redirect	Template	NA	???	Total
29	0	97	101	124	97	34	0	172	307	3	1	116	1	22	7,622	227	10	0	8,963